Text chat transcript from our Knowing Knowledge Elluminate session, January 10, 2007
Hans de Zwart: hello
Hans de Zwart: No mike yet...
billkerr: bill kerr - teacher, currently in melbourne, australia
Ju Gense: I am an English teacher in Presidente Prudente, S‹o Paulo state, Brazil
Gerry: School District 60 Peace River North/Thompson Rivers U
Hans de Zwart: I am a teacher in secondary education in The Netherlands. Soon to be e-learning consultant for the Dutch Moodle Partner: Stoas
Gerry: Digging out today
Sylvia Currie: Sylvia Currie from Lac le Jeune British Columbia Canada. Snow is up past my boots here!
Hans de Zwart: In europe we have no winter: terrible skiiing!
billkerr: 38 degrees Celcius in australia
Ju Gense: Here is hot and rainy for about 3 weeks
Gerry: -40 C with the windchill here
Gerry: I'll trade Bill
billkerr: wanna swap?
George Siemens: hello
Moderator: I'm in Vancouver Canada
Gerry: Yes, I am noticing
kristina: I can hear extra echo
Sylvia Currie: I'm noticing some feedback as well -- not from Paul but I hear it from George
Ju Gense: me either
Gerry: That is right from George, but not from Paul
Ju Gense: now ok
kristina: now OK
Hans de Zwart: ok for me
George Siemens: i love promotions...
Sylvia Currie: Congratulations on your promotion
Moderator (George Siemens): beautiful
Sylvia Currie: outstanding!
SusNyrop: Hello, this is Sus from Denmark!
Derek: This is Derek from Christchurch (10.00am) a latte is on the way to my desk.
kristina: Kristina from Atlin
Moderator (George Siemens): Bill - nice to see you here
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Hi Derek, I'd like a latte too
Moderator (George Siemens): (bill kerr)
billkerr: hi george
Derek: I'm worried that my mike is very static-y
Moderator (George Siemens): well, we can field text questions as well..
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): For those just joining the session let us know where you are from and what organization you are with
akochan: Hello George, I didn't realize you are so close to me, from the University of Manitoba!
billkerr: not used to elluminate, getting the hang of it
Sylvia Currie: Big hug for Sus! (We go way back)
Nick: Hi I run "e-learning" for want of a better word, at an education cooperative in Valencia Spain. To confuse you it is called Florida. But Florida is a Spanish word!!
Moderator (George Siemens): btw - Bill Kerr, I, and others are doing an online workshop in a few weeks
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Welcome Nick
Moderator (George Siemens): http://umanitoba.ca/learning_technologies/connectivisim/
Moderator (George Siemens): on connectivism
Nick: I have no sound, after the joy of echoes earlier, is that correct?
Moderator (George Siemens): feel free to register
Moderator (George Siemens): akochan - you are where?
SusNyrop: 10 pm here, I'm currently teaching student teachers at a college here in Copenhagen, using edublogs for their group projects. 289 students and 12 teachers involved - and we also talked a lot about your new book Georges
Sylvia Currie: Feel free to register -- and registration is free (for the connectivism conference)
Moderator (George Siemens): Sus - looking forward to your reactions
akochan: I am also on campus at U of Manitoba.
Moderator (George Siemens): ah...
Moderator (George Siemens): small world
Moderator (George Siemens):
Moderator (George Siemens): Bill?
Moderator (George Siemens):
Moderator (George Siemens): you're coming through
Moderator (George Siemens): just beneath the text box - click the all button
Derek: Bill's Wiki: http://learningevolves.wikispaces.com/
Derek: and just found is blog as well: http://billkerr.blogspot.com/2005/08/connectivism.html
Derek: aside: will you save the chat as well or just the sound/images?
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Derek, yes we're recording the whole thing.
Sylvia Currie: Seymour Papert's get well card: http://papert.media.mit.edu/
Derek: Seymor's get well card:
Nick: ok got it
Derek: One thing I've really liked about the book is the pictures . . .
Derek: My teenagers have this stressed out effect - I think theirbrains are growing also.
billkerr: i think this is similar to Gardner's multiple intelligences
SusNyrop: The diagrams are looking fine!
Ju Gense: yep
Scott Leslie: huh?
Scott Leslie: no
Moderator (George Siemens): ok
Nick: or is it the publishers practice of producing new editions regularly to keep their market active, which builds in obsolescence
Derek: Hm, certainly true for intermediat physics . . they even change the page numbers arbitrarily . .
Nick: noone wants the 2001 edition, becuase there is a 2004 a 2005 and a 2006 edition but the knowledge hant moved as much perhaps, at textbook level
Derek: My son is doing a building apprenticeship . . .
Derek: The containers are really predefined . . .
Derek: BUT, he could bnot do it without the guy working next to him.
Derek: He HATED schol - but loves the work on the job. <end>
Scott Leslie: so is the thesis that we no longer need to learn the "hard" knowledge
Ju Gense: what do you mean Hard?
Scott Leslie: cf last slide; the stuff that isn't ra[idly obsolescent
Scott Leslie: rapidly
Nick: if its out there all we need is to connect to it, you mean??
billkerr: some knowledge is regarded as important but hard to learn, eg. the concept of democracy
Ju Gense: um...yoou can connect to it when you need, that is it?
Nick: i guess it isnt that simple
billkerr: alan kay has a list of non universals, things that are not spontaneiously learnt
Nick: yes you cant just swallow democracy, it needs chewing
Scott Leslie: but we still expect people doing advanced physics to be able to perform calculus, other davanced math, the have those skills themselves
Hans de Zwart: bill do you have a link to Alan Kay's list?
Derek: For me 'hard' knowledge is like the basics of chemistry and physics . . air + petrol + spark + confined space = boom. ??
billkerr: * reading and writing
* deductive abstract mathematics
* model based science
* equal rights
* perspective drawing
* theory of harmony (?)
* similarities over differences (?)
* slow deep thinking
* legal systems
Andy: are we talking about bourgeois democracy or bottom up?
Nick: these neural paths, are internal, brain-based research si about learning in the brain right
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): So its not so much that knowledge is changing so fast as much as there being an increase in knowledge flow globally?
billkerr: to andy, jst the concept of democracy isn't spontaneiously developed
Nick: does connectivism diiferentiate between abstract knowledge (democracy) and skills (building a wall)?
Nick: so how does the external part take place?
Nick: are the neural paths (in connectivism) viewed as a map of the ideas that are out there
billkerr: we can use the environment to leverage what ishappening inside out brains, eg. rotate a piece of a jigsaw puzzle
Andy: I think even higher level ideas develop in response to material and social conditions. So real democracy is a very concrete and immediate problem to many.
billkerr: good point andy
Nancy W: Nodes to noggins. I like that.
Nancy W: How many nodes till our noggins say "no more!"?
Gerry: sound is fine
billkerr: sound is fine
Salvor: sound fine
Jan Lai: no problem here
Bart Sullivan: no problem here
Rick 1: ok
Liz Wallace: Fine
Nancy W: loud and clear here
Scott Leslie: yes
Scott Leslie: it's back now
Nick: and how does language fit in ( amix of knowledge and skill) language learning seems a fundamental issue in that respect
Scott Leslie: democracy and connectivism
Nick: that takes you back to maps maybe, the neuiral as mirror of the external
billkerr: no real evidence that nerural can mirror external
billkerr: AI efforts to achieve that have not been successful
Ju Gense: can't images be considered a language?
Derek: Well, as usual, tons more questions than we have time for - George is doing well - I'd love more space to write chats and a space to write drafts . .
Derek: This is great . . .
Nick: yes i was going more at the mix, in language between automatic and conscious ability, how that learning takes place
billkerr: i thnk images are simpler than language
Derek: What about the Mona Lisa? do we all hear the same thing?
Nick: images tend to lose a lot when they are translated to the verbal
Derek: I think images are more complex than words Bill . . .
Andy: language is a codification of meaning, which images only do to some extent.
Ju Gense: but language either andy
Derek: You catch, sense from images . . .
Derek: But from diagrams, with words, it's different again.
Nick: verbal language is codifcation, some images cannot be broken down to be verbalised
Ju Gense: but somethings cant be verbalised
Ju Gense: but demonstrated through images
Nick: exactly but they have meaning
Ju Gense: for sure
billkerr: i was responding more to chat comments than what u wre saying george
billkerr: i thnk what i was saying is supportive of a connectivism type of theory
Andy: Pinker suggests that some kernal of a grammatical langiuage is hard wired by evolution
billkerr: that derives from chomsky, i think that is now challenged by connectionist (not connectivist) experiements - ie. neural networks
billkerr: that language patterns can be learnt, chomsky claimed it was impossible
Nancy W: Can the two really not live together in some way?
Nancy W: Or maybe I'm thinking about static and linear in a different way.
billkerr: which two nancy?
Nancy W: Nick, yes they CAN'T live together, or yes static/linear can live together with the knowledge flow.
Nancy W: Or maybe I need to distinguish between design intention, and what happens in practice.
Nick: i was talking about the ideas about language
Nancy W: Ah, Nick, I see. I was remarking off of the previoius slide. Now two slides ago
Nick: the fact that there may be an innate capcity doesnt mean it cant also be learned
Nick: we got out of synch!!
Moderator (George Siemens): Bill - yes - I agree that your comment was supportive of connectivism
Andy: the innate capacity is exactly that, a cpacity to learn, but sometimes it's programmed to go off better in childhood than later.
Bart Sullivan: everyone takes up wikis full time
Nick: im chewing on the way my clear perception that i know things inside me and how i link to the things i know outside me, im thinking out loud here, what is the realtion, it seems lika clinbe to me
Nick: sorry: like a cline
Nick: yes yes yes george!!!
Nick: for it
Nick: I dont teach I just provide the conditions for learning to take place
Ju Gense: ok, answering the question: I see that a teacher should encourage students to interact with each other, for example, by simply requesting them to comment what someone said....That are things you are asking about??
Bart Sullivan: hmmm.. very buddhist approach -
Scott Leslie: if knowledge and knowing has so fundamentally changed, is it possible for someone to be learned, competent, knowing (whatever, fill in your adjective) and NOT be on the network?
Bart Sullivan: letting go to make space
Nick: yes an no bart, i think you can do an awful lot through the way you define and adjust that space as the learners comprehension/connections/constructs evolves
Ju Gense: (nick) but how can you allow learning to take place? which strategies can you use?
Nick: you create situations, for example that promote dialogue between the learners about a particular issue or area
Ju Gense: as i mentioned about asking each one to comment on others opinions in a blog for example...
Nick: and facilitate that dialogue, you can suggest, ask questions, pointin useful directions
SusNyrop: Ju, the comment feature in blogs and wikis can support student interaction - but to my recent expeirence, this ought to be encouraged as most students are still a bit unfamiliar with thinking as grouops, not as individuals in teh classroom perspective
Ju Gense: For sure, how do you encourage them sus?
Ju Gense: commenting on what they say?
Nick: i agree, dialogue (the learninginteraction ) has to be learned,
Ju Gense: I agree either nick
Nick: it isnt the same as conversation
SusNyrop: for example, by your own example, and perhals also by inviuing external guest readers on the blogs, etc
billkerr: SusNyrop, Ju, have u seen the blog of proximal development, it is v good on the question u r discusiing
Ju Gense: not yet
billkerr: konrad G?
Nancy W: Distinguish between network size from the perspective of relationship and from the perspective of information?
Nick: the problem is there are so many great great bloggers!!!
Ju Gense: thanks
Sylvia Currie: See you all in SCoPE! Take your questions there
Derek: See you all . . .
Nick: bye thanks
SusNyrop: Thanks for organizing this session Sylvia!!!
Jan Lai: thanks, very nice evening. ciao from Italy!
Liz Wallace: Many thanks, George.
Bart Sullivan: thanks
Hans de Zwart: Thanks you George, Sylvia and Paul!
Bruce Smith: well done. Thanks.
Moderator (George Siemens): you're welcome
Liz Wallace: SCoPE chat room?
Moderator (George Siemens): a bit rushed, i must say
Nick: a lot to get through!!!
Salvor: Thanks. From out in Reykjavik, Iceland
claire brooks: thanks everyone, even though I was late, this is a great time for australians to join in
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): And you thought we'd only talk for 30 min!
Ju Gense: These links will be really useful...thanks george, could understand a bit better about connectivism
SusNyrop: Hi Salvor!
Ju Gense: See you around...
Sandy: Great successful session Sylvia. I will send you the link to the recording in a few minutes.
SusNyrop: goodnight from Copenhagen!
Liz Wallace: Phone 604-408-8804
Hans de Zwart: Elluminate worked quite well for me I must say
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Good to hear Hans
Hans de Zwart: I like how cross platform it is...
Moderator (George Siemens): Liz - sorry, caught your comment late
Hans de Zwart: Usually this is quite hard for linux users like me.
Moderator (George Siemens): yes, I should have captured questions
Moderator (George Siemens): and followed up later
Moderator (George Siemens): toward the end, i skipped most of the questions and comments...
Moderator (George Siemens): perhaps a follow up discussion in elluminate
Moderator (George Siemens): ...
Sylvia Currie: George -- I'll grab the text
Hans de Zwart: I would like one..
Jan Lai: great
Nick: it would be nice
Nick: alot to chew on
Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Definitely lots to think about and yes George a follow on session at some point sounds like a good idea.
Moderator (George Siemens): ok...
Moderator (George Siemens): i'm game
Sylvia Currie: Want to schedule for next Wed same time?
Hans de Zwart: My augmented cognition device is telling me I have learned enough for today: bedtime
Nick: sounds good to me
Hans de Zwart: I would like another session (not for me to decide of course). I hope to have finished the book by then, just learned of its existence...
Sylvia Currie: Thanks Paul and Sandy! Really appreciate working together on this.
Moderator: It was fun
Moderator: Expect you'll have a lively SCOPE discussion
Nick: is there a way we can find out whether next wednesday will happen
Sandy: Excellent session. It could have continued for hours.
Nick: eg the scope list
Sylvia Currie: Nick -- for sure, I'll keep everyone posted through SCoPE. Plus the asynchronous discussion is scheduled there for 3 weeks.