Text chat transcript from our Knowing Knowledge Elluminate session, January 10, 2007

Hans de Zwart: hello

Hans de Zwart: No mike yet...

billkerr: bill kerr - teacher, currently in melbourne, australia

Ju Gense: I am an English teacher in Presidente Prudente, S‹o Paulo state, Brazil

Gerry: School District 60 Peace River North/Thompson Rivers U

Hans de Zwart: I am a teacher in secondary education in The Netherlands. Soon to be e-learning consultant for the Dutch Moodle Partner: Stoas

Gerry: Digging out today

Sylvia Currie: Sylvia Currie from Lac le Jeune British Columbia Canada. Snow is up past my boots here!

Hans de Zwart: In europe we have no winter: terrible skiiing!

billkerr: 38 degrees Celcius in australia

Ju Gense: Here is hot and rainy for about 3 weeks

Gerry: -40 C with the windchill here

Gerry: LOL

Gerry: I'll trade Bill

billkerr: wanna swap?

George Siemens: hello

Moderator: I'm in Vancouver Canada

Gerry: Yes, I am noticing

kristina: I can hear extra echo

Sylvia Currie: I'm noticing some feedback as well -- not from Paul but I hear it from George

Ju Gense: me either

Gerry: That is right from George, but not from Paul

Ju Gense: now ok

kristina: now OK

Hans de Zwart: ok for me

George Siemens: i love promotions...

Sylvia Currie: Congratulations on your promotion

Gerry: Fine

Moderator (George Siemens): beautiful

Sylvia Currie: outstanding!

SusNyrop: Hello, this is Sus from Denmark!

Derek: This is Derek from Christchurch (10.00am) a latte is on the way to my desk.

kristina: Kristina from Atlin

Moderator (George Siemens): Bill - nice to see you here

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Hi Derek, I'd like a latte too

Moderator (George Siemens): (bill kerr)

billkerr: hi george

Derek: I'm worried that my mike is very static-y

Moderator (George Siemens): well, we can field text questions as well..

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): For those just joining the session let us know where you are from and what organization you are with

akochan: Hello George, I didn't realize you are so close to me, from the University of Manitoba!

billkerr: not used to elluminate, getting the hang of it

Sylvia Currie: Big hug for Sus! (We go way back)

Nick: Hi I run "e-learning" for want of a better word, at an education cooperative in Valencia Spain. To confuse you it is called Florida. But Florida is a Spanish word!!

Moderator (George Siemens): btw - Bill Kerr, I, and others are doing an online workshop in a few weeks

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Welcome Nick

Moderator (George Siemens): http://umanitoba.ca/learning_technologies/connectivisim/

Moderator (George Siemens): on connectivism

Nick: I have no sound, after the joy of echoes earlier, is that correct?

Moderator (George Siemens): feel free to register

Moderator (George Siemens): akochan - you are where?

SusNyrop: 10 pm here, I'm currently teaching student teachers at a college here in Copenhagen, using edublogs for their group projects. 289 students and 12 teachers involved - and we also talked a lot about your new book Georges

Sylvia Currie: Feel free to register -- and registration is free (for the connectivism conference)

Moderator (George Siemens): Sus - looking forward to your reactions

akochan: I am also on campus at U of Manitoba.

Moderator (George Siemens): ah...

Moderator (George Siemens): small world

Moderator (George Siemens):

Moderator (George Siemens): Bill?

Moderator (George Siemens):

Moderator (George Siemens): you're coming through

Moderator (George Siemens): just beneath the text box - click the all button

Derek: Bill's Wiki: http://learningevolves.wikispaces.com/

Derek: and just found is blog as well: http://billkerr.blogspot.com/2005/08/connectivism.html

Derek: aside: will you save the chat as well or just the sound/images?

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Derek, yes we're recording the whole thing.

Derek: k

Sylvia Currie: Seymour Papert's get well card: http://papert.media.mit.edu/

Andy: http://www.flowersforseymour.com

Derek: Seymor's get well card:

Derek: http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/2007/01/community-indicator-get-well-seymour.htm

Nick: ok got it

Derek: One thing I've really liked about the book is the pictures . . .

Derek: My teenagers have this stressed out effect - I think theirbrains are growing also.

billkerr: i think this is similar to Gardner's multiple intelligences

SusNyrop: The diagrams are looking fine!

Ju Gense: yep

Scott Leslie: huh?

Scott Leslie: no

Moderator (George Siemens): ok

Nick: or is it the publishers practice of producing new editions regularly to keep their market active, which builds in obsolescence

Derek: Hm, certainly true for intermediat physics . . they even change the page numbers arbitrarily . .

Nick: noone wants the 2001 edition, becuase there is a 2004 a 2005 and a 2006 edition but the knowledge hant moved as much perhaps, at textbook level

Derek: My son is doing a building apprenticeship . . .

Derek: The containers are really predefined . . .

Derek: BUT, he could bnot do it without the guy working next to him.

Derek: He HATED schol - but loves the work on the job. <end>

Scott Leslie: so is the thesis that we no longer need to learn the "hard" knowledge

Ju Gense: what do you mean Hard?


Scott Leslie: cf last slide; the stuff that isn't ra[idly obsolescent

Scott Leslie: rapidly

Nick: if its out there all we need is to connect to it, you mean??

billkerr: some knowledge is regarded as important but hard to learn, eg. the concept of democracy

Ju Gense: um...yoou can connect to it when you need, that is it?

Nick: i guess it isnt that simple

billkerr: alan kay has a list of non universals, things that are not spontaneiously learnt

Nick: yes you cant just swallow democracy, it needs chewing

Scott Leslie: but we still expect people doing advanced physics to be able to perform calculus, other davanced math, the have those skills themselves

Hans de Zwart: bill do you have a link to Alan Kay's list?

Derek: For me 'hard' knowledge is like the basics of chemistry and physics . . air + petrol + spark + confined space = boom. ??

billkerr: * reading and writing

* deductive abstract mathematics

* model based science

* equal rights

* democracy

* perspective drawing

* theory of harmony (?)

* similarities over differences (?)

* slow deep thinking

* agriculture

* legal systems

Andy: are we talking about bourgeois democracy or bottom up?

Nick: these neural paths, are internal, brain-based research si about learning in the brain right

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): So its not so much that knowledge is changing so fast as much as there being an increase in knowledge flow globally?

billkerr: to andy, jst the concept of democracy isn't spontaneiously developed

Nick: does connectivism diiferentiate between abstract knowledge (democracy) and skills (building a wall)?

Nick: so how does the external part take place?

Nick: are the neural paths (in connectivism) viewed as a map of the ideas that are out there

billkerr: we can use the environment to leverage what ishappening inside out brains, eg. rotate a piece of a jigsaw puzzle

Andy: I think even higher level ideas develop in response to material and social conditions. So real democracy is a very concrete and immediate problem to many.

Nancy W:

billkerr: good point andy

Nancy W: Nodes to noggins. I like that.

Nancy W: How many nodes till our noggins say "no more!"?

Gerry: sound is fine

billkerr: sound is fine

Salvor: sound fine

Jan Lai: no problem here

Bart Sullivan: no problem here

Rick 1: ok

Liz Wallace: Fine

Nancy W: loud and clear here

Scott Leslie: yes

Scott Leslie: it's back now

Nick: and how does language fit in ( amix of knowledge and skill) language learning seems a fundamental issue in that respect

Scott Leslie: democracy and connectivism

Nick: that takes you back to maps maybe, the neuiral as mirror of the external

billkerr: no real evidence that nerural can mirror external

billkerr: AI efforts to achieve that have not been successful

Nick: indeed

Ju Gense: can't images be considered a language?

Derek: Well, as usual, tons more questions than we have time for - George is doing well - I'd love more space to write chats and a space to write drafts . .

Derek: This is great . . .

Nick: yes i was going more at the mix, in language between automatic and conscious ability, how that learning takes place

billkerr: i thnk images are simpler than language

Derek: What about the Mona Lisa? do we all hear the same thing?

Nick: images tend to lose a lot when they are translated to the verbal

Derek: I think images are more complex than words Bill . . .

Andy: language is a codification of meaning, which images only do to some extent.

Ju Gense: but language either andy

Derek: You catch, sense from images . . .

Derek: But from diagrams, with words, it's different again.

Nick: verbal language is codifcation, some images cannot be broken down to be verbalised

Ju Gense: but somethings cant be verbalised

Ju Gense: but demonstrated through images

Nick: exactly but they have meaning

Ju Gense: for sure

billkerr: i was responding more to chat comments than what u wre saying george

billkerr: i thnk what i was saying is supportive of a connectivism type of theory

Andy: Pinker suggests that some kernal of a grammatical langiuage is hard wired by evolution

billkerr: that derives from chomsky, i think that is now challenged by connectionist (not connectivist) experiements - ie. neural networks

billkerr: that language patterns can be learnt, chomsky claimed it was impossible

Nancy W: Can the two really not live together in some way?

Nick: yes

Nancy W: Or maybe I'm thinking about static and linear in a different way.

billkerr: which two nancy?

Nancy W: Nick, yes they CAN'T live together, or yes static/linear can live together with the knowledge flow.

Nancy W: Or maybe I need to distinguish between design intention, and what happens in practice.

Nick: i was talking about the ideas about language

Nancy W: Ah, Nick, I see. I was remarking off of the previoius slide. Now two slides ago

Nick: the fact that there may be an innate capcity doesnt mean it cant also be learned

Nick: yes

Nick: we got out of synch!!

Moderator (George Siemens): Bill - yes - I agree that your comment was supportive of connectivism

Andy: the innate capacity is exactly that, a cpacity to learn, but sometimes it's programmed to go off better in childhood than later.

Bart Sullivan: everyone takes up wikis full time

Nick: im chewing on the way my clear perception that i know things inside me and how i link to the things i know outside me, im thinking out loud here, what is the realtion, it seems lika clinbe to me

Nick: sorry: like a cline

Nick: yes yes yes george!!!

Nick: spaces

Nick: for it

Nick: Einstein

Nick: I dont teach I just provide the conditions for learning to take place

Ju Gense: ok, answering the question: I see that a teacher should encourage students to interact with each other, for example, by simply requesting them to comment what someone said....That are things you are asking about??

Bart Sullivan: hmmm.. very buddhist approach -

Scott Leslie: if knowledge and knowing has so fundamentally changed, is it possible for someone to be learned, competent, knowing (whatever, fill in your adjective) and NOT be on the network?

Bart Sullivan: letting go to make space

Nick: yes an no bart, i think you can do an awful lot through the way you define and adjust that space as the learners comprehension/connections/constructs evolves

Ju Gense: (nick) but how can you allow learning to take place? which strategies can you use?

Nick: you create situations, for example that promote dialogue between the learners about a particular issue or area

Ju Gense: as i mentioned about asking each one to comment on others opinions in a blog for example...

Nick: and facilitate that dialogue, you can suggest, ask questions, pointin useful directions

SusNyrop: Ju, the comment feature in blogs and wikis can support student interaction - but to my recent expeirence, this ought to be encouraged as most students are still a bit unfamiliar with thinking as grouops, not as individuals in teh classroom perspective

Ju Gense: For sure, how do you encourage them sus?

Ju Gense: commenting on what they say?

Nick: i agree, dialogue (the learninginteraction ) has to be learned,

Ju Gense: I agree either nick

Nick: it isnt the same as conversation

SusNyrop: for example, by your own example, and perhals also by inviuing external guest readers on the blogs, etc

billkerr: SusNyrop, Ju, have u seen the blog of proximal development, it is v good on the question u r discusiing

Ju Gense: not yet

billkerr: konrad G?

Nancy W: Distinguish between network size from the perspective of relationship and from the perspective of information?

Nick: the problem is there are so many great great bloggers!!!

billkerr: http://www.teachandlearn.ca/blog/

Ju Gense: thanks

Sylvia Currie: See you all in SCoPE! Take your questions there

Derek: OK

Derek: See you all . . .

Nick: bye thanks

SusNyrop: Thanks for organizing this session Sylvia!!!

Jan Lai: thanks, very nice evening. ciao from Italy!

Liz Wallace: Many thanks, George.

Bart Sullivan: thanks

Hans de Zwart: Thanks you George, Sylvia and Paul!

Bruce Smith: well done. Thanks.

Moderator (George Siemens): you're welcome

Liz Wallace: SCoPE chat room?

Moderator (George Siemens): a bit rushed, i must say

Nick: a lot to get through!!!

Salvor: Thanks. From out in Reykjavik, Iceland

claire brooks: thanks everyone, even though I was late, this is a great time for australians to join in

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): And you thought we'd only talk for 30 min!

Ju Gense: These links will be really useful...thanks george, could understand a bit better about connectivism

SusNyrop: Hi Salvor!

Ju Gense: See you around...

Sandy: Great successful session Sylvia. I will send you the link to the recording in a few minutes.

SusNyrop: goodnight from Copenhagen!

Liz Wallace: Phone 604-408-8804

Hans de Zwart: Elluminate worked quite well for me I must say

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Good to hear Hans

Hans de Zwart: I like how cross platform it is...

Moderator (George Siemens): Liz - sorry, caught your comment late

Hans de Zwart: Usually this is quite hard for linux users like me.

Moderator (George Siemens): yes, I should have captured questions

Moderator (George Siemens): and followed up later

Moderator (George Siemens): toward the end, i skipped most of the questions and comments...

Moderator (George Siemens): perhaps a follow up discussion in elluminate

Moderator (George Siemens): ...

Sylvia Currie: George -- I'll grab the text

Hans de Zwart: I would like one..

Jan Lai: great

Nick: it would be nice

Nick: alot to chew on

Meeting Moderator (Paul Stacey): Definitely lots to think about and yes George a follow on session at some point sounds like a good idea.

Moderator (George Siemens): ok...

Moderator (George Siemens): i'm game

Sylvia Currie: Want to schedule for next Wed same time?

Hans de Zwart: My augmented cognition device is telling me I have learned enough for today: bedtime

Nick: sounds good to me

Hans de Zwart: I would like another session (not for me to decide of course). I hope to have finished the book by then, just learned of its existence...

Sylvia Currie: Thanks Paul and Sandy! Really appreciate working together on this.

Moderator: It was fun

Moderator: Expect you'll have a lively SCOPE discussion

Nick: is there a way we can find out whether next wednesday will happen

Sandy: Excellent session. It could have continued for hours.

Nick: eg the scope list

Sylvia Currie: Nick -- for sure, I'll keep everyone posted through SCoPE. Plus the asynchronous discussion is scheduled there for 3 weeks.

Nick: fantastic

Last modified: Tuesday, 25 October 2011, 3:31 PM