Join Us for Our Live Webinar on Friday, April 24

Join Us for Our Live Webinar on Friday, April 24

by caren levine -
Number of replies: 3
Whether you just joined this seminar or have been with us since the beginning, please join us on Friday for a live webinar!

The webinar will provide us with an opportunity to dig into themes and case studies that are emerging in our conversations.

Click the link to enter the webinar on Elluminate.
Click the link to check your time zone.

Please note: We recommend that you log on at least 10 minutes before the start time to address any technical issues.

(Edited by Sylvia Currie - original submission Wednesday, 22 April 2009, 04:46 PM -- edited GMT time )

In reply to caren levine

Re: Join Us for Our Live Webinar on Friday, April 24

by Sylvia Currie -
Reminder! Just staring out Elluminate session now! Hope to see you there!
http://tinyurl.com/9m668l
In reply to Sylvia Currie

Recording + text chat: Webinar on Friday, April 24

by Sylvia Currie -
Thanks everyone for a great discussion today in Elluminate! Here is the recording. I'm also copying the text chat here so it's right here in front of us and because we MUST continue this dialogue. So many interesting questions and comments raised!

So please... review, pull out, and bring forward all of your interesting questions. And feel free to initiate new discussion threads. (Open the forum and click the "begin a new discussion" button)

April 24, 2009

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Bill Owen: Hello Dianne .... welcome

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DianneA: Hello Bill

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DianneA: understood

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DianneA: Kiama Australia

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DianneA: recently graduated MEd(Hons) = thesis

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Bill Owen: Great... welcome to Canada this fine warm afternoon.

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DianneA: topic = Contributing to Learning to Change

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DianneA: 5am here don't want to wake up the rest of hte household unnecessarily

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DianneA: continuing with self--directed learning

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Bill Owen: I have young ones as well, who tend to rise with the sun, my prefer quiet working time.

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DianneA: I do soem peer review for Journal of Research Practice

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DianneA: you can auido me, I have the earphones on

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Bill Owen: What was the main conclusion of your thesis?

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DianneA: that learning to change is difficult, complex and takes time ..

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DianneA: that it is assisted by some specific activities and doing those in a group of peers

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Moderator (Caren): Hi! Greetings from New Jersey

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DianneA: Hi Karen

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Hi Caren! Glad to see you

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DianneA: sorry missed the spelling

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DianneA: I am well

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Moderator (Caren): Yay!

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Moderator (Caren): Dianne, no problem - I get lots of combinations re: my name

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Moderator (Caren): You probably do as well?

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Moderator (Caren): Dianne, where are you located?

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DianneA: Kiama Australia

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DianneA: just on 5am here

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DianneA: still dark

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Moderator (Caren): Well, thanks for being here!

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Moderator (Caren): 5am - yikes!

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DianneA: I am a natural early bird worker

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DianneA: like Bill it is when I think I do my best work

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Moderator (Caren): quiet time?

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DianneA: I have had some trouble getting into the head space of the discussion in this seminar ...

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Moderator (Bill Owen): The first 3 hours before coffee time are excellent reflective hours I find.

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DianneA: yes and I am usually fresh after a sleep when some of the other important processing has been done

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Moderator (Caren): Dianne, can you say more about that?

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Moderator (Caren): about the discussion - not about sleep LOL

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Moderator (Caren): Welcome, Diego!

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DianneA: yes Caren, I am not all that clear about how what I do is impacting or interacting on others

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DianneA: I know I appreciate self-directed learning

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Moderator (Bill Owen): Welcome Diego...

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Diego Leal: Hi there, everyone! Greetings from Rio de Janeiro!

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Moderator (Caren): Hi, Diego, from New Jersey in the US

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DianneA: but getting others to join with me at my level is hard yakka

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DianneA: Hello Diego, hola

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Moderator (Caren): Dianne, sounds like you have a lot to add to this discussion!

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Diego Leal: Thanks! I have sort of a crappy connection today, so I'm not sure audio will work... I'm glad I made it, though!

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DianneA: Hi Silvia

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Silvia: Hi!

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Moderator (Bill Owen): Hello Silvia. Great to have you here.

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Moderator (Caren): Where are you located, Silvia?

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Silvia: Buenos Aires, Argentina

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Diego Leal: Yup, exactly!

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Silvia: yes!

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): yes, you sound good

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DianneA: yes OK my end

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Silvia: thank you

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Also, any questions feel free to add to text chat

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Silvia: informal education is always present even while

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Silvia: taking formal courses

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Intesting point, Silvia. It's difficult to NOT have informal learning, right?

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Diego Leal: I think the PLE concept helps to glue both worlds. Then again, the question is how do you you evaluate a PLE?

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DianneA: what is PLE Diego?

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Moderator (Caren): Great question!

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Silvia: Personal Learning Environment

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Diego Leal: PLE: Personal Learning Environment

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DianneA: thanks

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Silvia: when credentials are not important people engage in other ways of training. self motivated by what it is possible to learn

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Moderator (Caren): Welcome, Gina!

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): @Silvia so I wonder are we more motivated when credentials aren't in the way?

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Gina 1: thanks! sorry i'm so late

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Moderator (Caren): Glad to have you here!

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): No such thing as late, Gina

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Gina 1:

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Silvia: not necessary.... but when you are not interested in having the credentials for

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Silvia: formal education offers the only

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Silvia: thing that counts is motivation

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Moderator (Bill Owen): hello Gina

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Gina 1: hi Bill!

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DianneA: for me, Professional stays in a learning environment so long as it is delivering what they need

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DianneA: So there is continuous ‘relevance’ evaluation going on

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Silvia: I agree Dianne

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Moderator (Bill Owen): Should we be looking at recognition of learning and/ or outcomes?

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DianneA: In my corporate workplace that I left in 1999 to extend my formal examination, the most prevalent professional learning conversation was – what have you done to deal with X, how did it work?

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DianneA: I took longer doing my masters thesis because I wanted to learn, and more than just have my prior learning recognised

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Gina 1: I think learning is 'recognized' only when it is being applied to something, like a credential

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DiegoLeal: (I moved to another PC, to see if this works...)

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Do we focus so much on outcomes just because it isn't as messy? PLAR processes can be a lot of work

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Gina 1: formal, informal, non-formal learning... it all feels the same inside the learner's head

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DianneA: pragmatism rather than transformation from my observation

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DianneA: though sometimes the transformation arises

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DiegoLeal: Gina, is not important for each learner to try and recognize her learning every now and then?

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DiegoLeal: I mean, even without a credential...

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Moderator (Caren): Gina, can you say more?

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Gina 1: @Diego, yes, but I think we do this quite naturally

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Moderator (Caren): Welcome, Wendy!

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Wendy Kraglund-Gauthier: Whew... one conference to another

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Moderator (Bill Owen): hello Wendy... great to see you here.

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Gina 1: @Caren, well, ALL learning is valuable, maybe even equally valuable IMO. But the only time it needs 'recognition' by somebody else

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Gina 1: is when it is being applied to some purpose

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DiegoLeal: What I'm wondering now is if it's even possible to recognize someone else's learning...

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Hello aj, welcome!

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Moderator (Caren): @ GIna - thanks

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DiegoLeal: Maybe you can see the outcomes, but they don't represent all of the learner's learning, right?

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Moderator (Caren): Welcome, Naava!

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): @Diego, interesting statement.

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DianneA: for me sitting in a three day commercial seminar didn't delvier the goodies ... I needed to be able and forced to do something with it to move from the hearing to the doing

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Gina 1: @Diego: good pt. And i think that if somebody tries to recognize someone else's learning without permission/purpsoe, it kind of colonizes the learner's experience

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Moderator (Caren): Greetings, AJ and Cath!

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Gina 1: not sure if that makes sense...

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Thanks, Bill

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Moderator (Caren): Are there other models that people are using for informal learning?

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Moderator (Caren): Portfolios are one..

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Gina 1: i think a portfolio is a LOT of work unless it is framed in some sort of purpose, e.g. a portfolio for your specific profession

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DiegoLeal: Right now I'm thinking that, in an online environment, all you could actually see (and maybe evaluate, in consequence) are the traces of each student's participation, which could be seen as their contribution to the community... Does that make sense?

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Moderator (Bill Owen): What is the role of a portfolio for evaluationing and recognizing informal learning?

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DiegoLeal: @Gina I really like that "colonizing the learner's experience" thing!

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Gina 1: yeah, like.. .who decides which aspects of the learner's learning is valuable? more valuable? than what???

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DiegoLeal: My question would be how open is that portfolio actually...

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Naava to Caren: am 1/2 in but glad to be trying to be here

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DiegoLeal: Does it really takes all the student's work into account, or just the bits the portfolio evaluator is interested in?

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Moderator (Caren):

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Gina 1: not sure it CAN take all of the work into account; nor should it

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Silvia: good question Diego.

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Moderator (Bill Owen): both great questions Diego

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DiegoLeal: In the end, I wonder if informal learning evaluation it's all about self-evaluation...

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Gina 1: i think you could be right

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Moderator (Caren): DIego - yes, I think it is about assessing one's learning needs

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Gina 1: unless what was acquired informally is also applicable to some 'package' of outcomes, e.g. for a professional designation

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator):

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Moderator (Caren): assessing one's own learning needs - and knowing how to act on it

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DiegoLeal: @Caren and assessing one's own learning outcomes, and knowing how to act on them...

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Moderator (Caren): @Diego - yes.

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DiegoLeal: That passport could be useful to compile all the student's info in one place?

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Moderator (Caren): So perhaps part of our role as educators (assuming that's a vantage point through which we are viewing this) is...

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Silvia: I find it difficult to think of the category of
"evaluating" with different formal tools in an informal learning.

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Moderator (Caren): to help our learners understand this

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Gina 1: can you say more, sylvia?

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DiegoLeal: @Caren And how do we do that? We need to show that subjects/learning/projects are not over when the formal experience (course) is over...

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Silvia: portfolios, passports, etc are all part of the wide rango of tool students use in formal education. so I

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DiegoLeal: How do we deliver the message that needs generate outcomes generate needs... an so on?

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Silvia: sorry... "teachers use in formal education

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Moderator (Caren): @ Diego - maybe by making certain informal/ nonformal areas more explicit

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Moderator (Caren): for example, helping people understand Personal Learning Networks, Communities of Practice, and other "technologies" to understand different types of learning

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DiegoLeal: @Caren I think that's the point... Kind of helping them recognize their PLE and integrate them into the formal experiences?

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Moderator (Caren): Maybe I'm not saying that right

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DianneA: Bill I had a comment about the 'priinciple' of accreditation ...

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DianneA: it seems to me that Government accreditation, institutional accreditation and the issue of taking away from the individual the power to self-assess …

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DiegoLeal: Would that be different kinds of 'learning', or just different kinds of participation?

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Moderator (Caren): @Diego - yes, I think that might be

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DianneA: And that, inherently, acts to diminish the sense in a person that their evaluation is enough

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Gina 1: @Dianne: i don't think the institution takes away the power to self-assess but the institution is the intermediary between the profession & the learner

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Moderator (Caren): Welome, Jared!

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): @interesting question, Dianne... What are the implications of gov accreditation / recognition of informal learning

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Gina 1: the credential recognizes the assesment of a body of learning that enables someone to do something

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DianneA: fair comment Gina

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Moderator (Bill Owen): Dianne, yes formal accreditation does take away the empowering opportunity to self-assess. What I would prefer to see is that insitutions and governements are supportive of informal learning and recognize the value it adds to our communities. Thus they play a more supportive role.

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DiegoLeal: hi Jared!

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Jared Stein: Hey guys! Sorry I hopped in so late. Just caught this URL

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Moderator (Bill Owen): Welcome Jared... good to see you here.

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Jared Stein: gotcha, no problem!

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Gina 1: @Bill: but some of us might become annoyed at the institution's involvement, perceived role, in our out-of-inistutiton learning

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DiegoLeal: Um, but I'm not sure gov accreditation is having that effrect in our institutions... I mean, I can't relate that right now to my experience...

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Gina 1: i'm the only one who CAN self-assess my learning!

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Jared Stein: @Gina true, but can others assess your self-assessment?

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DiegoLeal: @Gina ExAcTlY!!!

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Silvia: I agree

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Gina 1: @Jared, YES they can but only if my learning is to be applied to some 'body' of knowledge, some profession

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DiegoLeal: @Jared @Gina I'd say a conversation among student and teacher about that self-assessment is important, and should point to sharp the self-assessment skills of the student..

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Moderator (Caren): GIna - are there things that organizations can do to help support you as an informal learner?

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Gina 1: @Caren, hmmm... probably ... <thinking>

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Moderator (Caren): Hello, Nellie! Good to see you!

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Nellie Deutsch: Hi Caren, Shalom

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Moderator (Caren):

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Nellie Deutsch: I can only stay for about 40 min because I have my own presentation later on

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Gina 1: but Bill; recognition towards WHAT?

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Moderator (Caren): Perhaps it is to recognize and encourage independent learning?

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Nellie Deutsch: ongoing never ends

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DiegoLeal: @Bill COuld you remind me what do faculty do with those stamps?

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Gina 1: i agree Nellie. Learning is just something we do.

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Nellie Deutsch: just gets better

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Gina 1: all the time. we can't help it.

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Nellie Deutsch:

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Jared Stein: This is essentially saying that "seat time" is an accurate measure?

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Naava to Caren: I gotta go - thanks - I look forward to hearing about it

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Moderator (Bill Owen): Does "time in" serve as an approximate marker of self-learning?

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DianneA: and I would say that in essence you can only learn while you are evaluating

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Gina 1: ... but an accurate measure of WHAT? that's my (repetitive, I know) question

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Nellie Deutsch: I am biased re-stamps as an ex-stamp collector

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Jared Stein: Presuming that everyone learns approximately at the same rate and intensity...

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DianneA: your own evaluation recognises what you need to learn and that you have learned and that you can move on

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Nellie Deutsch: don't like stams

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): time in not the same as time invested

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Jared Stein: Right, are you measuring progression or objective standards?

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DianneA: the self-assessment is then at your own perceived level of desiring to be competent

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DiegoLeal: @Gina That's the core question to me, too... WHAT are we trying to measure accurately?

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Nellie Deutsch: no rate is expected in informal learning

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Jared Stein: so the stamps are meaningless, right?

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Nellie Deutsch: it's very individual unlike formal

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Gina 1: @Jared, yes i think you're right, unless they're applied to somethnig, a body of knowledge or practice

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Silvia: measure the same things to all emplyees??? Who decides what to meassure

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Moderator (Caren): Whatever is measured / assessed should have an internal, contextualized logic

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Silvia: ??

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Nellie Deutsch: stamps may be artificial

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Moderator (Caren): The crux of it is learning itself

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Gina 1: you're right Bill, question 4 is the pivotal one

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Nellie Deutsch: those who pay @Silvia

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Silvia: jajaj!! stamps are an old system used by primary teachers here in Argentina.

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Jared Stein: @Nellie I like the idea of getting them personally, knowing that I would put in my best efforts, but relatively speaking I can't say my stamps are equivilent to your stamps. Therefore the stamps can't be used for authentic recognition, can they?

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Nellie Deutsch: they also have smilis tags

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Gina 1: all that time i spend sewing does not count towards any stamps or stickers unless the institution values what i'm learning when i'm sewing

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Silvia: what a controversial topic is to tray to evaluate informal learning.

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Nellie Deutsch: money

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Nellie Deutsch:

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Jared Stein: @gina or unless you yourself value your learning activities (and documentation of these)

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Nellie Deutsch: are faculty interested in learning as such?

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DiegoLeal: @Jared I really agree with that...

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Jared Stein: I'd say publicized awards, not nec. tied to $

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Moderator (Caren): I think that formal/ informal/ nonformal learning is a constellation

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Nellie Deutsch: are teachers interested in learning or just getting students to pass

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Jared Stein: I'd say the reason I blog, use Twitter, is because I value my "informal learning" and like to document it

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Gina 1: @Jared: oh, & i do value it! but the institution, academia, tends to value traditional subjects (history, math, etc. etc.) more than others

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Gina 1: so that learning gets more stamps.

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Gina 1: kind of arbitrary when you think of it.

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Jared Stein: @gina yes yes. but I think we sometimes contradict ourselves when we say, no one can measure my learning but me, and the institution should value my learning

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Silvia: you are RIGHT!

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Moderator (Caren): @Gina - my impression is that the stamps are not a goal, but rather, an acknowledgment

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Gina 1: you are so right. So the learning only counts when it counts towards SOMETHNIG

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Nellie Deutsch: why would the institution value anyone's learning unless it is passed on and used

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Jared Stein: money goes away, but my ego accumulates

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Gina 1:

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Moderator (Caren): LOL Jared

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DiegoLeal: LOL Jared!

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DiegoLeal: Let's do the stamps based on the size of egos....

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Jared Stein: @nellie I think that's a keen point. Very important to realize we do nothing unless it is shared.

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Nellie Deutsch: is research your motive in all this, Caren?

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Nellie Deutsch: the barter system is the way we do things

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DiegoLeal: Uh. I'm just getting aware that in my mind, I suppose that outcomes of informal learning are usually shared, which is not true...

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Nellie Deutsch: but you get value when you share

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Jared Stein: @diego Sometimes you do, sometimes sharing is selfless, with no reward.

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Gina 1: i think a lot of us learn new things in order to add value to the world

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Neat, I like that challenge How to evaluate what we're doing in SCoPE

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DiegoLeal: @Nellie Definitely, yet that value is not recognized yet on many institutional settings...

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Jared Stein: @gina I think that should be everyone's goal. Learn to share, and learn in order to share more!

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DianneA: reflecting on this session, I have benefited from being forced to articulate some things to contribute

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Moderator (Caren): @ Nellie - what do you mean re: research?

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Nellie Deutsch: if you learn for yourself and keep for yourself is that being valued by others, how would they know about it. Would you stay with your learning without sharing?

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Gina 1: @Jared, i agree

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Moderator (Caren): You're great, Bill

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Gina 1: @nellie: i don't think i would stay with it for long. we are social beings

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Nellie Deutsch: What are your objectives?

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Moderator (Caren): Hi, John!

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Jared Stein: @gina Personally I would, but that is a sort of selfishness that goes against my morals. I have to force myself to share (and to be social)

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Moderator (Caren): Please!

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Silvia: yes!

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Jared Stein: yes

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Gina 1: @s

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Gina 1: @Jared: you are sharing like crazy right here

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Jared Stein: @gina too much, perhaps!

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Gina 1: no!

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Moderator (Bill Owen): we sometimes encourage our students to teach (with the assumption - implicit or not - that teaching solidifies their learning). Thus, I think that sharing our informal learning is important.

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DiegoLeal: I don't know... To me, just having this conversation is worth the effort...

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Not sure we always need conclusions

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DiegoLeal: @Moderator Agree

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Jared Stein: Bill, I'd like to think that sharing is less important for students than it is for professionals--because professionals are obligated to give back.

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Jared Stein: @Bill, but at the same time I know teaching others helps you learn.

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DiegoLeal: To recognize the landscape and the complexity of this issues is worth enough--

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Moderator (Bill Owen): I would tend to agree

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Nellie Deutsch: but we are getting recognition

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Nellie Deutsch: we can write books, give presentations

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): http://scope.bccampus.ca/mod/forum/view.php?id=1691

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Gina 1: <sigh> back to my day job i guess...

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Nellie Deutsch: thank you

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Moderator (Bill Owen): Thanks for your contributions, and great questions.

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Gina 1: it's been lively! & interesting!

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Moderator (Caren): Thank you all! So much more to think about!

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Jared Stein: thanks for letting us join. it was a refreshing break

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DianneA: thanks everyone

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Moderator (Caren): Great to meet you all - see you on the discussion!!

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Moderator (Meeting Moderator): See you back in SCoPE!

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Silvia: thank you!!!

In reply to caren levine

Summary of Issues from the Webinar (crossposted from Emerging Themes and Models)

by caren levine -
Below is a summary of the discussion that took place on our webinar in the form of questions that arose. We encourage you to listen to the archives and follow the text chat. Feel free to post your own notes, reactions, and post-webinar thoughts here.
  • How do we “recognize” learning?
  • How do we celebrate learning?
  • Do learners distinguish between formal, informal, and nonformal learning?
  • What is the role of portfolios for evaluating and recognizing informal learning?
  • Is informal learning about self-evaluation?
  • Are formal learning assessment tools transferable to the assessment of informal learning?
  • What role do educators play in helping learners assess their own (informal) learning?
  • What are implications for accreditation?
  • What is the relationship between learning and the (self) assessment of that learning?
  • What is measured when assessing informal learning?
  • How is informal learning valued, especially by institutions?