April 12, 2010 CULTURALLY DIVERSE LEARNERS

Facilitators: Emma Bourassa, Kyra Garson, Thompson Rivers University

Note: Some very minor edits (spelling, etc) to the original transcript were done

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kathy kelly: me too! I'm checking in from Santa Cruz, CA. May not be able to stay long

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kathy kelly: thanks!

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emma b: okay, 3 headsets later, let's see if Kyra and I can share...e

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wburton: I am Wendy and I'm down the road at University of Fraser Valley ... in Abbotsford today.

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wburton: I am mic-less today, which is probably a good thing.

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Kyra: lucky you!

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Sylvia Currie: you need to release the mic, Kyra

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emma b: Hi Wendy, are you the Center for Teaching and Learning person I emailed about the TRU teaching colloquium in Feb?

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emma b: Kathy, what's the weather in Santa Cruz?

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kathy kelly: cloudy, some rain. we're thrilled. more water!

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Sylvia Currie: Emma and Kyra, can you indicate with video (s) on this page we'll be looking at? http://scope.bccampus.ca/file.php/8/5061_CDL/cdl/index.html

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Kyra: number 3 Plagiarism

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emma b: sylvia, did you get the latest ppt with the number counter for all vids?

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emma b: The other video is the student voice- that's the one I gave you the other day. There are 4 parts. It's the third part.

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Dawn-Louise: hi; I'm from TRU-OL (you asked for note)

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Sylvia Currie: okay, got it. Thanks

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Alexandra: Hi! I am in Vancouver.

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emma b: Hi, welcome to the session

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Alexandra: accessing from one of UBC libraries

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Pat Pattison: Pat here from BCIT

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emma b: Hi Pat.

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Tony Carr: From Cape Town, South Africa ...Hi all :)

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Pat Pattison: Hello good to se you

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Dawn-Louise: hi emma

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Asif: Bonjour de Montreal

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Dawn-Louise: do you mind just posting the direct link to the videos?

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Sylvia Currie: Bonjour Asif!

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Asif: happy to be here

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Emma: Hi everyone - I'm from Portsmouth on the South Coast of England.

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emma b: Hi all, I have to share a mic wiht Kyra and another screen, so I may be popping in and out of the video screen.

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Sylvia Currie: @Dawn-Louise, here are the videos http://scope.bccampus.ca/file.php/8/5061_CDL/cdl/index.html

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Asif: not commonly applied anyway...

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John Morrison: are we supposed to see a question or do something?

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Dawn-Louise: thanks, Sylvia

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Emma: Ah, I was also confused John!

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John Morrison: ok see it. and what do you want us to do with that?

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John Morrison: ahhh, I agree

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Alexandra: It is so true

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Dawn-Louise: common sense is not to be found everywhere

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Sue Wolff: OK, so common assumes some cultural agreements

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Peter Fenrich: I see a lot of instances where common sense is applied and many others where it is not.

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wburton: Common sense is not common, or sensible, sometimes.

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Alexandra: common sense is all too subjective

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Sylvia Currie: Most people think they have commons sense, but...

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Emma: Yep - agree with those who've agreed! We all have different interpretations of "sense"

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Tony Carr: but common sense may sometimes lead off in entirely the wrong direction ...

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Melanie Wilke: Or is it that is what is common to one person may not be what is common to someone else.

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Dawn-Louise: for cultural reasons

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Dawn-Louise: for example

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Kyra: Exactly.  Whose sense of common sense should we apply?

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Asif: there's common sense and then there's organizational norms -- theory & practice

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Emma: @dawn ... or personal experience ...

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Pat Pattison: common sense is an egocentric concept

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Peter Fenrich: Perhaps what is common is changing as the environment becomes more diverse.

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Dawn-Louise: yes, Peter, there are no norms, is what I am thinking

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Kyra: Please watch the scene Plagiarism and stop at 4:09 minutes

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Kyra: ok

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Peter Fenrich: Or the norms are common to a smaller population over time - some may not be a norm any longer

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Kyra: sylvia, I'm not getting any sound on the vid

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emma b: Does anyone have any ideas of different kind of common sense?

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Dawn-Louise: yes: we experience Durkheim's anomie

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Emma: I am (getting sound from the video)

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Emma: Kyra have you got your sound off to stop you getting feedback when you were talking?

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emma b: Does everyone have sound?

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GinaB-COTR: the audio on the video is very quiet, even though i have my speakers & the video settings turned up to max

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Dawn-Louise: yes

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Sylvia Currie: I turned off the webcam

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Peter Fenrich: No sound for me.

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Sue Wolff: wonderful sound and video for me

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Dawn-Louise: try a direct link

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Dawn-Louise: via your browser

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Sylvia Currie: http://scope.bccampus.ca/file.php/8/5061_CDL/cdl/vplagiarism.html

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Emma: The video just disappeared.

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Alexandra: Video has been interruptee

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Tony Carr: disappeared it has ;)

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John Morrison: video screen vanished

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Sue Wolff: woops. lost it

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Dawn-Louise: do the direct link and see if that works. works for me, and I'm done

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Alexandra: audio was too quiet

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Sue Wolff: yes

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John Morrison: sure

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Sylvia Currie: http://blip.tv/file/3389208

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Kyra: ok thanks

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GinaB-COTR: might help for moderators to mute

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Sue Wolff: That's great!

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Asif: hello -- am i back?

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Sylvia Currie: Thx Gina! Too many buttons :-)

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Kyra: whoops..  I'm still not getting audio in bliptv

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Sue Wolff: now Blip and my network are buffering for quite a while at 3:14

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Pat Pattison: Mine was fine from the downloaded files

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John Morrison: that worked, got to 4:09

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Asif: need to manage cultural diversity btwn technologies :-)

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Sylvia Currie: @Kyra, must be related to your audio set up. Seems to work for others...(I hope!)

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Wendy Burton: I'm not getting any feed.

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Asif: can�t hear anything

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Emma: It cut out a lot more on the direct link than it did on the embedded one!

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Sylvia Currie: Waiting for others to come back to give green check mark

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Dawn-Louise: guess I was lucky. Used IE

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Sue Wolff: mine doesn't want to get past the 3:14 buffering

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GinaB-COTR: gotta <3 technology

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Asif: couldn�t watch the video -- kept dropping my connection to the net

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Wendy Burton: I'm not seeing anything, so don't wait for a green check mark from me. I think my fire wall is working overtime.

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Peter Fenrich: Buffering too. Our network is really slow right now. Yes, let's move on.

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Sue Wolff: go ahead - this is a lot of tech to get working for all

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Dawn-Louise: yes

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Alexandra: ok I am ready

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Dawn-Louise: sorry if I unchecked anyone

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Dawn-Louise: okay you have 2 questions

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Dawn-Louise: pls repeat first one

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Asif: open collaboration -- facilitator modelled, student learned via practical application

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Sue Wolff: academic honesty for everyone ought to be 1: credit your source, or at least support where the ideas came from.

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Alexandra: It is important but over emphasis is harmful for learners.

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Dawn-Louise: academic honesty: clear standards are established at our institution

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Dawn-Louise: and disseminated via course outline

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Emma: ...@Alex - especially as a: Removes time from other academic subjects & b: most students get it; those that don't, don't however many times you try to get them to think about it.

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GinaB-COTR: i think it needs to start with the context. WHAT is academic honesty (in North American, in institutional, in discipline-specific, in course context)?

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GinaB-COTR: & WHY does it matter?

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Dawn-Louise: in the online environment--Open Learning

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Dawn-Louise: definitions according to each institution

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Asif: here's my question -- what if a student reads theorists and in the process comes to integrate the theories as their own -- where does citation stop?

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John Morrison: probably best taught by a central unit out of student services or library. Avoids over brutal instructors, and it was the roughness in this instructor's approach which was the problem

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Dawn-Louise: you cite the literature review sources

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GinaB-COTR: IMO, 'academic honesty' doesn't always seem to relate to 'honesty'

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Emma: especially the latter "why" - we also have clear guidelines, but students don't always really understand them - however hard you try to explain.

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Tony Carr: 1) citing sources and acknowledging text used by others first - conventional approach but this is not so obvious for students who are learning academic literacies, a language and the language of a new discipline

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Dawn-Louise: then maybe we need to rewrite standards in clear English

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John Morrison: Firstly, this issue isn't always clear to local students so not suprising it�s even more of a challenge for foreign students

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GinaB-COTR: that would help!

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Kyra: When and how are the "rules" taught?

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emma b: How did we learn them?

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Dawn-Louise: the instructor in the vid is a nice guy IRL ;-))

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GinaB-COTR: In most cases we just EXPECT students to know the rules & we act scandalized when they don't

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Alexandra: academic honesty must be taught at an orientation level of the institution outside the courses

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Sylvia Currie: Learners should be taught what academic honesty is, rather than focus on all the bad things to happen to people who don't follow rules

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Peter Fenrich: Should one be taught or just told. If being told is not enough then teaching the ideas would be an alternative. It would be hard to determine who should teach it. Having a requirement before coming to campus would be a challenge too.

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Tony Carr: teaching these only as rules is a problem ...  becomes a question of compliance

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Dawn-Louise: Tony, then students can keep track of what they read from the beginning of their research

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Pat Pattison: at the start of the program overview  and then at the start of each course with examples from course specific assignments

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Emma: Also, need to tie in to what's done in Schools - I know that many UK students at level 1 find it difficult - as it's different from what they're expected to do at school.

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Sylvia Currie: Wow, good stuff here! We'll have to post this text chat in the seminar for sure

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Tony Carr: agreed Dawn-L

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Dawn-Louise: thx

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Emma: (Getting all staff to reference sources in lecture notes would be useful examples to set, too!)

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Dawn-Louise: yes, lively discussion

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Dawn-Louise: academic honesty could be an in-class learning activity

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Asif: is there a contradiction between open learning and plagiarism?

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emma b: Let's have a look at the rest of the first video. You'll see the instructor in one mode, the intercutural theory and his adjustment to help students.

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Dawn-Louise: how so, Asif?

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Melanie Wilke: Offering reason rather than the punishment for non-compliance

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GinaB-COTR: I have already viewed the video about what happens next :) & I think his new approach is really really good

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Tony Carr: ha! the world of the mashup meets the world of the academic

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Dawn-Louise: and the world of copyright

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Sylvia Currie: http://blip.tv/file/3389208

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Asif: if we ask students to visit several sources to get a sense of some idea -- do we really expect them to cite all those when reflecting on their learning?

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Peter Fenrich: Perhaps the question is why there is not academic integrity. Solving the problem is different than solving the symptoms.

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Dawn-Louise: not

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GinaB-COTR: sometimes it seems the citing overwhelms the conversation.

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Dawn-Louise: there are ways around that

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Dawn-Louise: in how you write

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Dawn-Louise: you can make it flow

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emma b: Sorry for the screech, was trying to get the sound from here.

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Sylvia Currie: http://scope.bccampus.ca/file.php/8/5061_CDL/cdl/vplagiarism.html

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Alexandra: Speaking of common sense, is the academic honesty "common" to all the instructors?

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Asif: 'flow' for one instructor could mean plagiarism for another, no?

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Dawn-Louise: hmmm

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Alexandra: I personally suffered diversities amongst instructors

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emma b 1: great question Alexandra- are there faculty from other cultures that this idea is confusing for also?

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Dawn-Louise: you really have to cite somehow

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Sylvia Currie: @Kerrie, we're watching on our own rather than use web tour. Some didn't have audio

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Dawn-Louise: we're low context

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Asif: agreed -- but seems counterintuitive to the mashup learning approach

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Dawn-Louise: it's a creative and academic challenge, I agree, Asif

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emma b 1: in a sense we are high context when we expect students to know what to do- particularly by reading a course outline that refers to the policy...?

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Asif: yep -- the best kind :-)

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Kyra: Our experience has been that the perspectives on this vary by culture, discipline and individual faculty and students  --- this is, in part, what creates such confusion for students

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GinaB-COTR: I think our current emphasis on correct citation etc. etc. is not sustainable in the new world of mashup

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Emma: Guess it's also dependant on the nature of the assignment - if it's to create a mashup, probably rather different to writing an essay covering your own views on whatever.

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Sue Wolff: What are the academic honesty rules for our use of this video in our own faculty development modules?

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emma b 1: Gina, where do you see it going?

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Dawn-Louise: that's why I hope to do it as a learning activity or handle it as Mark does in the 2nd part of the video

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Asif: maybe match-up (sources) rather than mashup? just thinking out loud

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Kyra: Sue, feel free - just keep us posted on any interesting outcomes1

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Emma: Re. mashups - also a useful starting point could be to search for court cases when x sued y for using their online resources without credit. (And, related, a good understanding of creative commons.)

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GinaB-COTR: @emma: in my crystal ball :) I see people becoming more & more relaxed about how/when to cite

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Tony Carr: Isn't one of the key issues here about differing cultures of conversation in academic communities

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Dawn-Louise: I hope your crystal ball is inaccurate

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Emma: Hold on, I'll just log out & in again to make me more different from the other emma!

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Dawn-Louise: yes

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Asif: depends if the crystal ball is viewed on IE or Firefox ;-)

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GinaB-COTR: @Dawn-Louise: I'd be interested to hear your concerns

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Dawn-Louise: differing cultures of conversation--understand

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Dawn-Louise: but academic writing is another creature

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John Morrison: what time stamp does this section run to?

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Dawn-Louise: ha, ha, Asif!

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GinaB-COTR: even 'academic' writing varies from culture to culture

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emma b: Tony, I think that's part of it, but within each of those academic communities there are people from different cultures whose common sense is not what we might expect.

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Dawn-Louise: true, Gina

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Sylvia Currie: @Emma and Kyra, do you think we've allowed enough time to watch the video?

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GinaB-COTR: not everybody has the same sense of personal ownership over ideas that we do

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Kyra: 14:45 is the time

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Dawn-Louise: it's tough

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Alexandra: is the instructor's attire suggestive of something?

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GinaB-COTR: :)

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Dawn-Louise: yes, that's right. I guess we all have to adjust according to what culture we are in

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EmmaDW: @Alex ... that he's Scottish as well as Canadian?

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Dawn-Louise: he always dresses like that

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Wendy Burton: So there are cultures you know of where plagiarism is accepted?

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Kyra: The instructor was wearing a kilt as it was convocation

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Alexandra: frightening for some culture

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GinaB-COTR: @Wendy: there are cultures in which plagiarism is much differently defined

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Dawn-Louise: I thought he usually wears them

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Wendy Burton: Examples?

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Peter Fenrich: For those who could not hear audio on the video, I could hear it if I unplugged my headset. Then, of course, I could no longer hear the moderator. Hmmm...

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Dawn-Louise: of cultures

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Asif: twitter world does a great job of sourcing content

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GinaB-COTR: I understand that in many asian cultures, knowledge is considered more societal-owned

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EmmaDW: @Alex - I've not come across students who are frightened of Kilt wearers; most of ours are amused.

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Sue Wolff: @Wendy, the Chinese student mentioned that in China it is up to the student whether to cite or not.

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Sylvia Currie: @Peter, ah the challenges. Too many audio configurations in this land :-)

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Tony Carr: I see a rush towards intensification of the surveillance + policing model eg in the use of automated plagiarism detection eg Turnitin

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Dawn-Louise: it's neat to see learners teaching/helping each other

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emma b: Tony, what's your feeling about that approach?

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Sylvia Currie: @Tony, yes and unfortunately there is a RUSH, without educating.

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Tony Carr: dangerous if it undermines developmental approaches

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Dawn-Louise: yes

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EmmaDW: @emma b - re. Turnitin - think that educating students how to use its results is vital - not using it as a policeman.

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Kyra: There are other scholars that suggest that we might be dealing with an antiquated model in a new age of information technology

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Dawn-Louise: good way of looking at it, Emma B

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GinaB-COTR: @Kyra: very interesting

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EmmaDW: as in, Kyra, we need to encourage students to use information, not to regurgitate it.

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emma b: Do any of you have conversations around the plagiarism paradigm conversation on your campus? Is there a move to shift at all?

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Asif: @Kyra -- agree with the other scholars (citation here)

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Dawn-Louise: well, I think if someone thinks of the idea and puts it out there first, they deserve credit

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EmmaDW: @emma b: depends on who you're talking to round our campus!

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Sylvia Currie: yes, sound good

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Dawn-Louise: especially if they have had to go through a lot to come up with it

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GinaB-COTR: @emma: yes, there's a conversation at COTR... mostly it is about 'how to control it' 'how to limit it or reduce it' ... always identified as a BIG & GROWING problem

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Dawn-Louise: I'm thinking of those who do primary research

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Tony Carr: important distinction Sue

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EmmaDW: @sue - when you said citing informally in discussion board posts - did you mean e.g. linking back to original? rather than putting whole citation in?

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Alexandra: Plagiarism became important largely because of the improvement of policing tools, not because it became easier to cheat.

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Asif: should we be copyrighting all our 'original' ideas?

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GinaB-COTR: @Alexandra: interesting!

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Dawn-Louise: yes

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Sue Wolff: Een APA has different citation formats depending on the audience for the writing and where it will be viewed.

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Tony Carr: Is it about ownership or about acknowledging contributions by others?

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Alexandra: It looks like cyber bullying extended

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Dawn-Louise: copyright everything unless you want to share via Creative Commons

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Dawn-Louise: how do you mean, Alexandra?

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Tony Carr: Creative Commons is also a form of copyright

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Dawn-Louise: yes, Tony

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Sue Wolff: We could have an entire unit exploring the cultural concepts of intellectual property, Open source, Fair Use, citation methods, publication standards etc.

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EmmaDW: Also, CC etc., is looking at you as owner of idea, not you as user of idea.

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Asif: wouldn't i be losing opportunities to let the idea be developed if i hoarded it as my own?

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Dawn-Louise: that's true

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GinaB-COTR: I'm not sure I even believe in the concept of an 'original idea'  ... (maybe i'm being a bit provocative though)

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emma b: Dawn-Louise, the idea of ownership is an interesting one. From our perspective, we own ideas and want credit, but from other perspectives, to say the words exactly are all one needs because the speaker is known. At what point do we allow students to use their 'way' of knowing?

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Dawn-Louise: yes, this is extremely enlightening

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Dawn-Louise: I think they start with what they already know

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emma b: If we look back to the ppt, can we respond with some other alternatives? Brainstorming welcome :)

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Asif: if somebody took my idea and developed on it, could they copyright it away from me?

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Dawn-Louise: and it's important to have that as a starting point]

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Wendy Burton: If a student is copying an essay entirely from an essay bank - and they do so deliberately - I'm unlikely to accept that is a "way of knowing" or a cultural norm. Whose culture?

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Dawn-Louise: who publishes first?

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Alexandra: Isn't there a fine line between collaboration and copying your group member's idea and work and make it one's own?

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Dawn-Louise: Asif?

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Dawn-Louise: because sometimes it's a race to publish first

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Asif: aaah -- the race to publish first -- does first mean its my idea?

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GinaB-COTR: academia is set up to be competitive (in many ways)

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GinaB-COTR: not necessarily the best model though

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Dawn-Louise: yes, Gina. very

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emma b: Yes, Wendy, so to go back to the other question, if we have students from diverse cultures in the class, how and by whom should they be taught about academic integrity?

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Alexandra: Collaboration happens in cyber space, too

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Wendy Burton: I want my learning environment to be collaborative. A mark of learning - of coming to know - is that I can distinguish where all "my" ideas came from.

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Kyra: And is the competitive aspect culturally influenced?

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Melanie Wilke: and where does the time to teach this get carved out of?

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GinaB-COTR: @Kyra: I think so

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Dawn-Louise: yes, good point, Wendy

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Peter Fenrich: I am not sure that we should change anything. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in Canada, meet our standards. It is not rocket science to give credit where it is due. I do agree the our standards need to be clear, presented to all students, ...

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Dawn-Louise: it shows you have done the groundwork

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EmmaDW: I recently attended a seminar that focused on particular groups (in this case, Indian students moving to UK postgrad study) & looked at particular differences they face.

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Tony Carr: would mentioning words like capitalism be naughty?

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Asif: true enough -- but based on others' ideas

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Asif: too

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Alexandra: I would think the most important thing is collective knowledge construction taking place in global scale

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Dawn-Louise: when in a certain country, adjust to those standards, as Peter says

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EmmaDW: So, to get back to @emma b's question - perhaps students who are of the same culture as the students - but experienced in UK (or, in most of your cases, Candaian) methods.

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Dawn-Louise: I wish I had a mic

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Tony Carr: teaching this cannot just be subcontracted to eg a writing centre .

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Dawn-Louise: no

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Asif: what if you're teaching out of canada and into china -- which country's norms would apply?

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Pat Pattison: The gradual supported developmental approach makes the most sense to me. at the start of the program overview  and then at the start of each course with examples from course specific assignments

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GinaB-COTR: @Pat - sounds fair

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EmmaDW: ALos, you'd need some subject knowledge - e.g. I'm in school of computing; so looking at difference between code re-use & code copying important.

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Dawn-Louise: I agree

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Dawn-Louise: scaffolding

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Tony Carr: since learning new practices takes time and may involve a steep learning curve

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Sue Wolff: I liked the way I learned in my undergrad program...we received a 3 page paper written by the instructor, cited in all the correct ways, then had a class deconstruction fo what the citations were about and why they were that kind. Then we had to do a paper using all the kinds.

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Alexandra: Isn't it wrong to assume that knowledge belongs to one person from the start?

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Asif: @Sue -- great activity

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Sylvia Currie: @Sue that's a good strategy. I like that

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GinaB-COTR: @Alexandra: it's radical! but I do agree with you.

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Peter Fenrich: Asif, if the course is Canadian credit then ours. If the course is credit for a Chinese university then theirs. Potential problem if both.

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Dawn-Louise: Sue, yes, that builds learning

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emma b: Sue, nice idea. I think I'll use it!

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Wendy Burton: I start every new assignment with a "so - what can y'all tell me about (drum roll please) cheating. They have about two minutes to come up with the list of rules, and then we're on to the work. Sort of like Jeopard. Well, a lot like jeopard. ;)

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GinaB-COTR: standards ARE country/culture-based but standards do change

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Kyra: Is this question of post colonialism?  Some would argue that the internationalization of higher education has tinges of that... whose standards set the standards?

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Wendy Burton: y, that would be. jeopardy....

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GinaB-COTR: @Kyra: interesting perspective

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Sue Wolff: It's a great Big Idea or Essential question: What are Standards?

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Asif: @Peter -- guess this would have to be an issue ironed out in the partnership agreement

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Sylvia Currie: @Wendy, I got it, being Canadian and all ;-)

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Sue Wolff: Who owns the standards? Where did they come from? Who cares?

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Alexandra: I think most of us view highly of and benefit from Wikipedia approach

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GinaB-COTR: yeah

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Alexandra: This must be the way

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GinaB-COTR: YEAH

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EmmaDW: @Alex- ownership of knowledge - but surely with citing, it's acknowleding who you got it from, not who thought it in the first place.

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Wendy Burton: Okay. I've taught in Finland, England, Scotland, China, Japan, Bangladesh, India, S Sudan, and Nairobi. Not to mention in far flung and remote reserves. I have NEVER encountered a student who claimed stealing someone else's words (from anywhere) and not acknowledging that was acceptable. Where are these cultures where this is acceptable?

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Dawn-Louise: and we feel quite strongly about this subject

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Dawn-Louise: it seems

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GinaB-COTR: 'stealing' does not = failing to cite all the time

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Wendy Burton: Do I want to live in a culture where cheating is a cultural norm?

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Asif: @Gina -- true

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Dawn-Louise: I think citation is essential

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Dawn-Louise: essential

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Wendy Burton: Do I know a culture where cheating is a cultural norm? Seriously?

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GinaB-COTR: 'cheating' does not = failing to cite in exactly the right way all the time

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Tony Carr: If we have an academic culture where you get rewarded for publications and being cited then there is a culture to be reproduced

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Sue Wolff: We expect credits and teach how to cite to a standard so that knowledge contributions can be explored together and rewarded in different ways...

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Alexandra: When you Google, you can usually find what you want without citation

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Dawn-Louise: oh yeah, if someone makes an error in the citation, no prob

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Dawn-Louise: at least they tried

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Peter Fenrich: One part of education is to be able to think. Generating your own thoughts is important. How would we know if a person could think if they could copy whatever they wanted and not give credit?

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EmmaDW: @Alex ... but even when you google you find a page (& we'd expect students to try to work out if page is reliable ... knowing author is one way of doing that!)

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Dawn-Louise: you can sometimes tell by how it's written

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Wendy Burton: If I use Word 2007 I can learn to cite properly and create a bibliography ... not to mention fix my grammar. I love technology! ;)

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GinaB-COTR: it's just not so black-&-white as we like to believe.

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emma b: Hi Wendy, this is interesting about all the different countries. Did you notice different ways of 'citing' sources in these different places that were different from what you initially expected?

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Dawn-Louise: I have read stuff where it was clear the entire thing was culled from various sources

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Dawn-Louise: really bad

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Wendy Burton: I don't believe it's black and white.

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Peter Fenrich: I want an employee who can handle the grey areas and solve unique problems. Those who can only do the black and white things are limited. So, proving the ability to think has value.

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GinaB-COTR: true

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Kyra: Great point Peter.  Students often get overwhelmed with how to fit their voice, their knowledge into the academic dialogue... then when intimidated by the potential of plagiarism charges, find that it is too confusing to determine whether their ideas are really original or not...

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Dawn-Louise: yes, you have to know how to critically think

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Sue Wolff: @Peter, true, we are trying to teach the concept of researching what is already accepted, so where did that idea come from, and then, how to paraphrase, begin to share understanding of the idea, then think, how do all the ideas come together? So references instead of more explicit citations.

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Dawn-Louise: and synthesize various ideas

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EmmaDW: Dawn - do you think it was purposeful "cut & shut" case, or do you think that it was inadvertent & not keeping proper notes etc., then finishing it off late night before due in?

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Tony Carr: yes! agreed Pat

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Alexandra: What about cheating if idea is stolen from work written in another language?

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John Morrison: It would seem to be less about insisting on standards around plagiarism than recognizing it is a learning situation which needs to be addressed rather than an occasion for punishment. Enshrining the addressing of the issue somewhere in an institution is the issue, less important where in the institution

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Dawn-Louise: EmmaDW, it read like premeditated

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Wendy Burton: to emmab - I've not once encountered a student who didn't know the difference between their own words and those they found in another source. We all had to learn to cite according to the model of the institution we were working in ... including the hut off the former main street in Juba.

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Dawn-Louise: maybe because English wasn't their first language and they were desperate

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EmmaDW: @Dawn - yes, I often think that can be the case - recognition of the fact that they can't rephrase in own words as can't say what they want to say.

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Asif: @Dawn – that�s a great point

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emma b: Yes, Pat- this what we're hoping is that there is a shift in how we deal with the idea of 'common sense' around this. For example, even just giving the rules pages without sufficient 'why' is not necessarily supporting students for success. As Kyra says, then we become the 'hunters' of the crime...

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Dawn-Louise: thanks

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John Morrison: is this session running beyond 1pm?

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Sylvia Currie: @John we plan to wrap up at 1:00 and take it to the asynchronous forum

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Tony Carr: plagiarism may be a way to simulate voice for students who lack the vocabulary and conventions of the discipline

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Dawn-Louise: I think teachers can encourage learners to use whatever language they have (in the target language) to express themselves rather than plagiarize

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Wendy Burton: I start from the place that a writer does not intend to plagiarize. I start from the "accidental" situations - we talk about how one could do that accidentally, and I share my own mistakes and examples. We start - and try to stay - together. I do watch my metaphors. Those who cheat on purpose - a different story. Serious hunting then ... ;(

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emma b: Thanks Wendy. How much time and support were you given?

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EmmaDW: ... and, of course, the need for us to ensure that assignments are designed so that it's not easy for students to just cut & paste ... so, plenty of time for planning & preparation etc.

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Dawn-Louise: yes

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Wendy Burton: And I have a great "can you spot the steal" exercise the students love.

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Dawn-Louise: wow, Wendy, would love to see that!

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Kyra: Does anybody here actually know how to cite a podcast?

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Dawn-Louise: good question

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EmmaDW: Seminar I mentioned earlier about different groups of international students was at http://www.sdaw.info/

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Asif: @Kyra -- hyperlink?

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emma b: Good point Sylvia

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Dawn-Louise: or an Elluminate session

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Dawn-Louise: check CMS

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Dawn-Louise: Chicago

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Dawn-Louise: or APA

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Wendy Burton: Word 2007 will teach you how to cite a podcast.

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EmmaDW: Kyra - what referencing system?

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Dawn-Louise: thx Wendy

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Tony Carr: Thanks Kyra, Emma and Sylvia

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Sylvia Currie: Here's a direct link to the asynchronous forum http://scope.bccampus.ca/mod/forum/view.php?id=5061

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Dawn-Louise: Kyra and Emma B, fantastic session

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Asif: thanks all -- great stimulating thoughts

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GinaB-COTR: really interesting!

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Alexandra: Thank you

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Pat Pattison: Thanks All

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John Morrison: thanks

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Kyra: There is also a discussion forum...

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Melanie Wilke: I found it challenging to type, read and listen all at the same time - maybe it was just me!

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Dawn-Louise: pls let us know where the taped session is posted

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Asif: appreciated the diversity of the teachership here

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emma b: Melanie- you're not alone!

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Peter Fenrich: Thanks, Good-bye!

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Dawn-Louise: I will be citing it in my next paper

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Sylvia Currie: We'll post the recording in the forum: http://scope.bccampus.ca/mod/forum/view.php?id=5061

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Asif: :-)

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EmmaDW: @kyra - our library's got an interactive tool for trying to decide what way to reference things - http://referencing.port.ac.uk/ - they've not got podcasts yet; but are going to do it ... I just use radio & adapt it.

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Dawn-Louise: thx

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Kyra: I was just trying to illustrate the changing needs of our students... the APA manual also gives a podcast citation example

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emma b: Hope to see you on the 26th :)

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Dawn-Louise: see you then

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Sylvia Currie: I'll save the text chat and post it in the forum.