Chat log for session with Ryan S.J.D. Baker
January 18, 2011
Me: waves hi to everyone in the room
Len: hi B
Len: Lenandlar Singh
Len: aka Len
Len: going good, still trying to sort out what i want from it
SuzGupta: Waves, wondering if there is some emoticon or Elluminate trick to show waving ...
Sheila MacNeill: Seems fine just now -I'm just a bit guilty for not spending more time on things - my excuse is being ill last week
Me: Ah..thanks for the name, Len. I was trying to figure out last time who you were
Len: i dont spend as much time, but i dont feel guilty
Eugene O'Loughlin: I missed first class - so this is a start for me.
Andreas Link: hi viplav!the development of futurelearn is how far? can one already deliver articles?
Len: i dont like to miss the live sessions
Len: i love the live sessions
Len: they feel real
Len: does that ring a bell?
Len: 2nd life i gotta get in, but i dont feel the need yer
Sheila MacNeill: great that there is so much activity and recordings are really useful
ViplavBaxi: Hi Andreas
Len: alot of gut feeling eh
Len: surprisingly, alot of moodle thread discussions
Len: yea B, Lenandlar here...
ViplavBaxi: I dont know yet. Need to check with Richard and George
Len: also steven downes course cck11
Len: i trying to follow that , again
Sheila MacNeill: Thanks George
Len: i like this course from the pov that it allows me to take what i want
Len: not force me to learn what ppl think i should learn
Andreas Link: thx, great!
Len: of course i'm old enough lol
Len: cold water
Me: glass of wine is a good idea
Eugene O'Loughlin: 8.00 in Dublin - it's a glass of wine for me!
Edumorfosis: Alguien de latinoamérica por aqui???
Len: actually i m outside of my office
Tony Ratcliffe: So long as it is 10 a.m. somewhere, it is a good time for a glass of wine.
Sheila MacNeill: just wishing I had some wine now! wine time in Scotland too
Len: trying to get wireless net going
ViplavBaxi: I am not sure what I should get..its 1.30 AM
Len: i;d love to do a lecture right from here
Len: it;s kool
Len: no more chalk and talk for now?
Len: im tempted to go get a pen and book to write
Len: but i dont feel the need to
Me: 18:05 here
Len: 4pm here in guyana
Edumorfosis: Puerto Rico: 4:00 pm
Me: I am capturing all the text
Len: barbara kool...
Len: where in brazil are u
Len: it;s a big place
Me: once it starts
Len: isnt it
Me: Sao Paulo
chris in sydney: 7am (tomorrow) in Sydney, Australia
Len: georgetown guyana
Len: must be tomorrow already down under
pfidalgo1: 8 p.m Portugal
Len: work at uni of guyana, no defined stragtegy
Jon Dron: depends what you mean....
Tony Ratcliffe: no answer if neutral
Len: ok kinda unsure
Len: hey Jon
pfidalgo1: Hi Jon
Len: former teacher at uni
John Fritz, UMBC: I enjoyed the week too
SuzGupta: clarification: I am not employed in a university setting
Len: did i miss a Jon Dron;s pres?
Len: no John, ok
Me: we have a tool that captures the marks of the students and compares results from previous trimesters
Len: when is Jon presenting
Len: ok kool...
Me: with the rest of the class
Len: looking forward Jon
Moderator (Jon Dron): hi Len - nice to see you here
Len: yea man
Len: long time
Len: hope things ok there
Len: how are things in Brighton?
Len: bang bang
Len: off they go
Cris2B: @Jennymackness -- good to see you again
jennymackness: @Cris2B - Hello Cris
Moderator (Jon Dron): is that Patricia Fidalgo, pfidalgo1? Hi!
Moderator (Jon Dron): @Len, not at Brighton much nowadays - main job at Athabasca
Len: hmmm, thought u go sometimes...hope enjoying at ath...
Len: sound check...
Moderator (George Siemens): yes
mhawksey: good here
John Fritz, UMBC: Good here, too
Debra Robertson-Welsh: I can hear yuo
Len: got it
Vince Jansen: good here
Vince: very good here
Moderator (George Siemens): we had great comments on John's presentation last week -really set the stage...
Adam Weisblatt: Which learning channels will be used and which ignored?
Moderator (George Siemens): @Kathleen - is that KMatheos?
Debra Robertson-Welsh: not from me
Moderator (Ryan Baker): ok
SuzGupta: would like to better understand difference betw EDM & LAK
Adam Weisblatt: What is the difference between LAK and EDM
Kathleen U-M: @ Moderator: No - Kathleen Omollo from University of Michigan.
Moderator (George Siemens): @Kathleem - ah - welcome
Len: thought LAK uses data mining as a technique?
Moderator (George Siemens): here's our LA definition: "Learning analytics is the measurement, collection, analysis and reporting of data about learners and their contexts, for purposes of understanding and optimising learning and the environments in which it occurs"
Adam Weisblatt: Does EDM use naturally occurring data and LAK includes how to generate the data?
Xavier Ochoa: For me the difference between EDM and LA is that Analytics should concentrate more on how the information extracted from the students actions is used to improve learning
Moderator (Jon Dron): @Len, LAK doesn't necessarily imply data mining - can build an explicit user model for instance from known inputs designed for that purpose
Len: thanks Jon
Len: good point to ponder
Moderator (George Siemens): Will do!
Moderator (George Siemens): keep going....
Vince Jansen: seems LAK really focus on the learners, whereas EDM includes learner + insitutional data
Me: I understood it the other way round
Francisco Reis: Is anybody in SL now?
Moderator (George Siemens): @Xavier and @Jon - both good comments (i.e. the application and the models)
Cris2B: Yes, I'm at the Bookhenge, Francisco. I'll get a SLurl for you.
Francisco Reis: Please and thanks!
Cris2B: @Francisco et al -- http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/USDLC%20Star%20Island/62/78/23
SuzGupta: is ALEKS an example or not quite?
jennymackness: How accurate is this system?
mhawksey: UK HE assessment is devolved to institutional level - means we don't have the luxury of standardised tests
Moderator (George Siemens): DataShop was briefly referenced last week
SuzGupta: there's a phrase not often heard in K12 ed in the US, "the luxury of standardised tests"
Adam Weisblatt: What is the size limitation for robust mining?
Francisco Reis: Can't copy from Elluminate chat...
Cris2B: @Francisco: What's your SL name?
Moderator (George Siemens): nope - keep going
Adam Weisblatt: What is the minimum data size
SuzGupta: will we be talking about interesting ways to use DataShop at some point in this course?
Vince Jansen: https://pslcdatashop.web.cmu.edu
Moderator (George Siemens): @Suz - that's not a focus at this stage, but we can revisit it...
SuzGupta: @Francisco: File->Save->Chat Conversation
Moderator (George Siemens): crazy off-task students
jennymackness: Feels a bit like Big Brother!
Moderator (George Siemens):
Moderator (George Siemens): Good ole chickering & Gamson: time on task
Adam Weisblatt: We see this in complianceware
Me: I have noticed that gaming the system occurs when they are not motivated because the exercise is boring
Tony Searl: http://users.wpi.edu/~rsbaker/gaming.html
SuzGupta: @Barbara: absolutely
Adam Weisblatt: Or as resistance to required training
Moderator (George Siemens): http://users.wpi.edu/~rsbaker/
Moderator (George Siemens): Ryan's main page
jennymackness: Do the students know that this is happening?
Me: they should
Me: be told
Vince Jansen: in systems i have seen yes they know
SuzGupta: @jenny -- great question and in letting them know, it would heopfully reduce gaming/off-task behavior
jennymackness: @Barbara - I agree
Adam Weisblatt: That is great accuracy for a human activity
Vince Jansen: system should detect gaming behaviour and adjust questions accordingly
jennymackness: Who is this data for?
SuzGupta: Have questions get harder/more interesting
SuzGupta: I would think for the developers of the ed software
Me: I suppose that questions/tests that can be tracked like this are not complex questions
Cris2B: Could off-task ever indicate a pause for reflective thinking, connecting, conceptual, creative thinking?
SuzGupta: also for the classroom teachers/admins
Mary McEwen: Is simulated data ever used to explore / confirm models?
SuzGupta: @Cris2B -- wouldn't that be wonderful! If the ed software is that thought provoking: good stuff
Vince Jansen: if you have a large database of questiosn an AI system should adjsut the level fo difficulty to the level of ability for each child
SuzGupta: @Vince -- like NWEA MAP testing in US middle schools
jennymackness: Do students have to give their permission?
Cris2B: SNAPP had a noble purpose: allow students to benchmark their performance without grading
Me: doesn't the instructor manipulate behaviour by using selective reinforcement ?
Vince Jansen: @SuzGupta not familiar with that but possible..although am concerned with the evaluation tone rather thna a learning
Me: @Vince + 1
Xavier Ochoa: EDM could answer Who, When, Where, but cannot answer Why. Are there studies connected to complement the findings of the data analysis with a more Qualitative research that could explain the behaviour or propose a solution?
Moderator (George Siemens): @Xavier - good ques - I'll throw it to Ryan next
Mary McEwen: And also the inverse of your question: how does (can/will) behavior and learning (or the analytics) impact educational software design?
Cris2B: Thanks for the response.
Xavier Ochoa: Thanks!
Moderator (George Siemens): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Yml4H2sG4U&feature=player_embedded
Cris2B: Do you ever have students take a protocol and reflect and consider what's going on when they're off-task -- sort of like Czismehalyi sp??? (Flow) and beepers
Vince Jansen: Can we disucss the performance gains using a congnitve tutor versus tradiional strategies
Vince Jansen: rahter than focus on the off-task behaviour, which will alwyas happend focus on what gains may be made
Moderator (George Siemens): sure
Moderator (George Siemens): agreed
Moderator (George Siemens): why is important to educators, though perhaps not to marketers
Adam Weisblatt: Can this be used to inform the selection of learning modes?
Adam Weisblatt: If a Talent Management System and an LMS were combined you could mine learning data with performance data
Moderator (George Siemens): @Adam - I think that gets into some of Verna Allee's work with value networks...
khopkins: Can you send reference to games testing research you just cited?
Vince Jansen: ok tks for that stat
Len: damn a got distracted by a colleague who wanted to tell me about his passing of a phd course...gotta catch up
Me: off task!
SuzGupta: What's a Talent Management System?
Len: what's Talent Suz?
Len: 100% in a classroom test?
Cris2B: @Adam -- I like the sound of TMS
Adam Weisblatt: TMS tracks recruitment, performance, leadership pipeline AND learning
Adam Weisblatt: TMS is a corporate hr tool
Cris2B: @Adam -- thanks
Me: gaming maybe seen as challenge - can I beat the computer?
Vince Jansen: @barbara a good cognitive should have the same goal
Adam Weisblatt: What is ITS?
Eugene O'Loughlin: ITS - Intelligent Tutoring System
Adam Weisblatt: thanks
Andreas Link: @Adam Weisblatt - a new german TM-driven book e.g: (translated) Electronic-Human Resource Management (E-HRM): As a Strategic Contribution for Lifelong Learning
Adam Weisblatt: thanks
Cris2B: So context/story is a good thing unless it's poorly done?
Me: depending on the level of proficiency, if they are learning a foreign language too much text online discourage them from reading
SuzGupta: memories of Clippy
Me: students hate it
Mary McEwen: at least no other features you explored...
Adam Weisblatt: The point of the page was to engage.
Adam Weisblatt: You were being asked to do something
SuzGupta: have you worked with writing software such as Pearson WriteToLearn or reading sw such as Scholastic Read180? Do you have plans to do so?
Jon Dron: Were there outliers in the other 78 features you looked at? I would hypothesise, for instance, that some stories are more engaging than others
Eugene O'Loughlin: How many people went "off task" during this session?
Moderator (George Siemens): @Eugene - good ques
Francisco Reis: Thank you!
Vince Jansen: multitasking
Me: I did
Adam Weisblatt: Is there a correlation to preferred learning modes?
Cris2B: @Jon - I remember hitting the highest level in the ancient SRA reading program (like on cards not a screen) just to get to some interesting stories.
SuzGupta: @Cris -- me too!
SuzGupta: thank you
Adam Weisblatt: How does this research get funded?
SuzGupta: yes, is it from the sw developers?
Moderator (George Siemens): perfect
Cris2B: @SuzGupta: so glad somebody else remembers those
Jon Dron: it kind of does!
Eugene O'Loughlin: We need courses on EDM - what should we teaching?
Moderator (George Siemens): @Eugene - I agree!!
Adam Weisblatt: Ho w hard is it to get involved? 5 months of programming sounds daunting
Eugene O'Loughlin: See latest Gartner Studies - Analytics and Bus Intelligence tops list of needed skills. We have opportunity to apply Ryan's work in business.
Moderator (George Siemens): @Adam - I would like to explore that toward the end of the course - i.e. what skills do we need for learning anlaytics
Moderator (George Siemens): as well as what does a learning analytics team look like (i.e. skill sets represented)
SuzGupta: very exciting stuff -- now that we know through previous studies that (at least w the Carnegie algebra), intelligent tutoring sw teaches better than traditional methods, now we can hone these programs for even better instruction/learning.
Eugene O'Loughlin: I did!
Adam Weisblatt: @Eugene do you have a link to the Gartner info?
SuzGupta: me too -- need to get up to speed on the stat analysis that underlies it though
Adam Weisblatt: I'm going to try to plug PSLC data into infovisualization tools like Tableau
Eugene O'Loughlin: Adam - I'll dig it out (I'm at home now) and post on discussion forum.
Adam Weisblatt: thanks
SuzGupta: excellent point: "the students have different disengaging behaviors"
Schawn T: http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1357514
Cris2B: cultural differences in disengagement
Schawn T: Sorry Gartner Study you are talking about??
SuzGupta: of course, if you're teaching in the US the key is how to reduce our students' disengagement
Maureen 1: Interesting work
SuzGupta: thank you, great presentation!
Adam Weisblatt: @Shawn thanks
Vince Jansen: thank you, very interesting presentation
Schawn T: @Adam, not sure if that is the report, but wanted to share.
jnes cambiasso: thank you.very interesting
Eugene O'Loughlin: Here it is: http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=1454221
kae: But those of us teaching in the online course or classroom wouldn't yuo love a dashbaord love to see who is distracted and who really isn't understanding.
jennymackness: Many thanks
Clare: please repeat this referrence..
Vince Jansen: interesting we use assistment!
kae: But won't something like Google analytics help us.
Cris2B: And is data-mining of this type more relevant to science, math than say, a literature course?
Francisco Reis: Thanks a lot Ryan for your very pragmatic approach that really looks for results and to make a difference!
Adam Weisblatt: To get this data from an LMS you will need to make sure the eLEarning passes the correct variables
SuzGupta: even with the tools to make the information highly relevant, there is still data overload. (thinking of NWEA MAP assessments)
Adam Weisblatt: @Eugene thanks
Schawn T: Thanks @Eugene
Eugene O'Loughlin: Welcome!
Adam Weisblatt: Don't you need data standards to make this work?
Vince Jansen: math has a correct answer what about dat amining, congitve tutor is more subejctvice courses.. isn't this the barrier in software solutions
Cris2B: and connectivist perspective -- autonomy, diversity, openness, etc.
khopkins: excellent, excellent question...would like to see this thread carried out throughout course
Moderator (George Siemens): @khopkins - need to make sure we raise it in the discussion forum
Cris2B: excuse me, but anyone wanting to join the Second Life group meeting afterwards could IM me there -- 2B Writer
Xavier Ochoa: Do you think that EDM is an evolution of traditional Educational Research, but with better tools and data, or do you think that there is something radically different or new about EDM or LAK?
Eugene O'Loughlin: Thank you Ryan and George!
Sheila MacNeill: thanks Ryan
Adam Weisblatt: Thanks!
edgaraltamirano 1: Thank you Ryan
Cris2B: Thanks so much, Ryan.
mhawksey: Thanks ryan
Len: good work Ryan, i got lost a bit
Len: but was good
Len: i will follow the presentation again
Me: Thank you, Ryan.
Tony Searl: plenty to digest. Thank you Ryan
Xavier Ochoa: thanks Ryan, very interesting talk!
kae: thank you!
Cris2B: Interesting, with selection/filtering, it seems we need to learn the skill of choosing what to attend to.
plug103: interesting stuff - thanks
Nelly Spanjersberg 2: Thanks Ryan and George
Moderator (George Siemens): @Xavier - do you mind dropping that question into Moodle?
Xavier Ochoa: I will
Mary McEwen: Also, can "Academic Analytics" be included in the mix of similar fields to be differentiated?
Jon Dron: I agree - but needs a separation of learning and accreditation, which implies competence frameworks which are kind of complx
Jon Dron: perhaps we can think in terms of smaller (or appropriately sized) chunks of learning activity rather than uniform length courses
Moderator (George Siemens): anyone else want to jump in?