Chat log for session with Ryan S.J.D. Baker

January 18, 2011

Me: waves hi to everyone in the room

Len: hi B

Len: Lenandlar Singh

Len: aka Len

Len: going good, still trying to sort out what i want from it

SuzGupta: Waves, wondering if there is some emoticon or Elluminate trick to show waving ...

Sheila MacNeill: Seems fine just now -I'm just a bit guilty for not spending more time on things - my excuse is being ill last week

Me: Ah..thanks for the name, Len. I was trying to figure out last time who you were

Len: i dont spend as much time, but i dont feel guilty

Eugene O'Loughlin: I missed first class - so this is a start for me.

Andreas Link: hi viplav!the development of futurelearn is how far? can one already deliver articles?

Len: i dont like to miss the live sessions

Len: i love the live sessions

Len: they feel real

Len: does that ring a bell?


Len: 2nd life i gotta get in, but i dont feel the need yer

Sheila MacNeill: great that there is so much activity and recordings are really useful

Len: yet

ViplavBaxi: Hi Andreas

Len: alot of gut feeling eh

Len: surprisingly, alot of moodle thread discussions

Len: yea B, Lenandlar here...

ViplavBaxi: I dont know yet. Need to check with Richard and George

Len: also steven downes course cck11

Len: on

pfidalgo1: hi

Len: i trying to follow that , again

Sheila MacNeill: Thanks George

ViplavBaxi: Great!

Len: i like this course from the pov that it allows me to take what i want

Len: not force me to learn what ppl think i should learn

Andreas Link: thx, great!

Len: of course i'm old enough lol

Len: cold water

Len: lol

Me: glass of wine is a good idea

Eugene O'Loughlin: 8.00 in Dublin - it's a glass of wine for me!

Edumorfosis: Alguien de latinoamérica por aqui???

Me: Eu

Len: actually i m outside of my office

Tony Ratcliffe: So long as it is 10 a.m. somewhere, it is a good time for a glass of wine.

Sheila MacNeill: just wishing I had some wine now! wine time in Scotland too

Len: trying to get wireless net going

ViplavBaxi: I am not sure what I should get..its 1.30 AM

Len: i;d love to do a lecture right from here

Len: it;s kool

Len: no more chalk and talk for now?

Len: im tempted to go get a pen and book to write

Len: but i dont feel the need to

Len: :p

ViplavBaxi: lol

Me: 18:05 here

Len: 4pm here in guyana

Edumorfosis: Puerto Rico: 4:00 pm

Me: I am capturing all the text


Len: barbara kool...

Len: where in brazil are u

Len: it;s a big place

Me: once it starts

Len: isnt it

Me: Sao Paulo

chris in sydney: 7am (tomorrow) in Sydney, Australia

Len: georgetown guyana

Len: must be tomorrow already down under

pfidalgo1: 8 p.m Portugal

Len: work at uni of guyana, no defined stragtegy

plug103: unsure

Len: strategy

Jon Dron: depends what you mean....

Tony Ratcliffe: no answer if neutral

Len: spelling

Len: ok kinda unsure

Jon Dron:

Len: hey Jon

pfidalgo1: Hi Jon

Len: former teacher at uni

John Fritz, UMBC: I enjoyed the week too

SuzGupta: clarification: I am not employed in a university setting

Len: did i miss a Jon Dron;s pres?

Len: no John, ok

Me: we have a tool that captures the marks of the students and compares results from previous trimesters

Len: when is Jon presenting

Len: ok kool...

Len: great

Me: with the rest of the class

Len: looking forward Jon

Moderator (Jon Dron): hi Len - nice to see you here

Len: yea man

Len: long time

Len: hope things ok there

Len: how are things in Brighton?

Len: bang bang

Len: off they go

Cris2B: @Jennymackness -- good to see you again

jennymackness: @Cris2B - Hello Cris


Moderator (Jon Dron): is that Patricia Fidalgo, pfidalgo1? Hi!

Moderator (Jon Dron): @Len, not at Brighton much nowadays - main job at Athabasca

Len: hmmm, thought u go sometimes...hope enjoying at ath...

Len: sound check...

Moderator (George Siemens): yes

mhawksey: good here

John Fritz, UMBC: Good here, too

Debra Robertson-Welsh: I can hear yuo

Len: got it

Vince Jansen: good here

Vince: very good here

Moderator (George Siemens): we had great comments on John's presentation last week -really set the stage...

Adam Weisblatt: Which learning channels will be used and which ignored?

Moderator (George Siemens): @Kathleen - is that KMatheos?

Debra Robertson-Welsh: not from me

Moderator (Ryan Baker): ok

SuzGupta: would like to better understand difference betw EDM & LAK

Adam Weisblatt: What is the difference between LAK and EDM

Kathleen U-M: @ Moderator: No - Kathleen Omollo from University of Michigan.

Moderator (George Siemens): @Kathleem - ah - welcome

Len: thought LAK uses data mining as a technique?

Moderator (George Siemens): here's our LA definition: "Learning analytics is the measurement, collection, analysis and reporting of data about learners and their contexts, for purposes of understanding and optimising learning and the environments in which it occurs"

Adam Weisblatt: Does EDM use naturally occurring data and LAK includes how to generate the data?

Xavier Ochoa: For me the difference between EDM and LA is that Analytics should concentrate more on how the information extracted from the students actions is used to improve learning

Moderator (Jon Dron): @Len, LAK doesn't necessarily imply data mining - can build an explicit user model for instance from known inputs designed for that purpose

Len: thanks Jon

Len: good point to ponder

Len: echo

Moderator (George Siemens): Will do!

Moderator (George Siemens): keep going....

Vince Jansen: seems LAK really focus on the learners, whereas EDM includes learner + insitutional data

Me: I understood it the other way round

Francisco Reis: Is anybody in SL now?

Moderator (George Siemens): @Xavier and @Jon - both good comments (i.e. the application and the models)

Cris2B: Yes, I'm at the Bookhenge, Francisco. I'll get a SLurl for you.

Francisco Reis: Please and thanks!

Cris2B: @Francisco et al --

SuzGupta: is ALEKS an example or not quite?

jennymackness: How accurate is this system?

mhawksey: UK HE assessment is devolved to institutional level - means we don't have the luxury of standardised tests

Moderator (George Siemens): DataShop was briefly referenced last week

SuzGupta: there's a phrase not often heard in K12 ed in the US, "the luxury of standardised tests"

Adam Weisblatt: What is the size limitation for robust mining?

Cris2B: @SuzGupta:

Francisco Reis: Can't copy from Elluminate chat...

Cris2B: @Francisco: What's your SL name?

Moderator (George Siemens): nope - keep going

Adam Weisblatt: What is the minimum data size

SuzGupta: will we be talking about interesting ways to use DataShop at some point in this course?

Vince Jansen:

Moderator (George Siemens): @Suz - that's not a focus at this stage, but we can revisit it...


SuzGupta: @Francisco: File->Save->Chat Conversation

Moderator (George Siemens): crazy off-task students

jennymackness: Feels a bit like Big Brother!


Moderator (George Siemens):

Moderator (George Siemens): Good ole chickering & Gamson: time on task

Adam Weisblatt: We see this in complianceware

Me: I have noticed that gaming the system occurs when they are not motivated because the exercise is boring

Tony Searl:

SuzGupta: @Barbara: absolutely

Adam Weisblatt: Or as resistance to required training

Moderator (George Siemens):

Moderator (George Siemens): Ryan's main page

jennymackness: Do the students know that this is happening?

Me: they should

Me: be told

Vince Jansen: in systems i have seen yes they know


SuzGupta: @jenny -- great question and in letting them know, it would heopfully reduce gaming/off-task behavior

jennymackness: @Barbara - I agree

Adam Weisblatt: That is great accuracy for a human activity

Vince Jansen: system should detect gaming behaviour and adjust questions accordingly

jennymackness: Who is this data for?

SuzGupta: Have questions get harder/more interesting

SuzGupta: I would think for the developers of the ed software

Me: I suppose that questions/tests that can be tracked like this are not complex questions

Cris2B: Could off-task ever indicate a pause for reflective thinking, connecting, conceptual, creative thinking?

SuzGupta: also for the classroom teachers/admins

Mary McEwen: Is simulated data ever used to explore / confirm models?

SuzGupta: @Cris2B -- wouldn't that be wonderful! If the ed software is that thought provoking: good stuff

Vince Jansen: if you have a large database of questiosn an AI system should adjsut the level fo difficulty to the level of ability for each child

Cris2B: @SuzGupta

SuzGupta: @Vince -- like NWEA MAP testing in US middle schools

jennymackness: Do students have to give their permission?

Cris2B: SNAPP had a noble purpose: allow students to benchmark their performance without grading

SuzGupta: hmmm

Me: doesn't the instructor manipulate behaviour by using selective reinforcement ?

jennymackness: Thanks

Vince Jansen: @SuzGupta not familiar with that but possible..although am concerned with the evaluation tone rather thna a learning

Me: @Vince + 1

Cris2B: Cool

Xavier Ochoa: EDM could answer Who, When, Where, but cannot answer Why. Are there studies connected to complement the findings of the data analysis with a more Qualitative research that could explain the behaviour or propose a solution?

Moderator (George Siemens): @Xavier - good ques - I'll throw it to Ryan next

Mary McEwen: And also the inverse of your question: how does (can/will) behavior and learning (or the analytics) impact educational software design?

Cris2B: Thanks for the response.

Xavier Ochoa: Thanks!

Moderator (George Siemens):

Cris2B: Do you ever have students take a protocol and reflect and consider what's going on when they're off-task -- sort of like Czismehalyi sp??? (Flow) and beepers

Vince Jansen: Can we disucss the performance gains using a congnitve tutor versus tradiional strategies

Vince Jansen: rahter than focus on the off-task behaviour, which will alwyas happend focus on what gains may be made

Moderator (George Siemens): sure

Moderator (George Siemens): agreed

Moderator (George Siemens): why is important to educators, though perhaps not to marketers

Adam Weisblatt: Can this be used to inform the selection of learning modes?

Adam Weisblatt: If a Talent Management System and an LMS were combined you could mine learning data with performance data

Moderator (George Siemens): @Adam - I think that gets into some of Verna Allee's work with value networks...

khopkins: Can you send reference to games testing research you just cited?

Vince Jansen: ok tks for that stat

Len: damn a got distracted by a colleague who wanted to tell me about his passing of a phd course...gotta catch up

Me: off task!

SuzGupta: What's a Talent Management System?

Len: what's Talent Suz?

Len: 100% in a classroom test?

Cris2B: @Adam -- I like the sound of TMS

Adam Weisblatt: TMS tracks recruitment, performance, leadership pipeline AND learning

Adam Weisblatt: TMS is a corporate hr tool

Cris2B: @Adam -- thanks

Me: gaming maybe seen as challenge - can I beat the computer?

Vince Jansen: @barbara a good cognitive should have the same goal

Adam Weisblatt: What is ITS?

SuzGupta: thanks

Eugene O'Loughlin: ITS - Intelligent Tutoring System

Adam Weisblatt: thanks

Andreas Link: @Adam Weisblatt - a new german TM-driven book e.g: (translated) Electronic-Human Resource Management (E-HRM): As a Strategic Contribution for Lifelong Learning

Adam Weisblatt: thanks

Cris2B: So context/story is a good thing unless it's poorly done?


Me: depending on the level of proficiency, if they are learning a foreign language too much text online discourage them from reading

SuzGupta: memories of Clippy

Me: students hate it


Mary McEwen: at least no other features you explored...

Adam Weisblatt: The point of the page was to engage.

Adam Weisblatt: You were being asked to do something

SuzGupta: have you worked with writing software such as Pearson WriteToLearn or reading sw such as Scholastic Read180? Do you have plans to do so?

Jon Dron: Were there outliers in the other 78 features you looked at? I would hypothesise, for instance, that some stories are more engaging than others

Eugene O'Loughlin: How many people went "off task" during this session?

Moderator (George Siemens): @Eugene - good ques

Francisco Reis: Thank you!

Vince Jansen: multitasking

Me: I did

Adam Weisblatt: Is there a correlation to preferred learning modes?

Cris2B: @Jon - I remember hitting the highest level in the ancient SRA reading program (like on cards not a screen) just to get to some interesting stories.

SuzGupta: @Cris -- me too!

SuzGupta: thank you

Adam Weisblatt: How does this research get funded?

SuzGupta: yes, is it from the sw developers?

Moderator (George Siemens): perfect

Cris2B: @SuzGupta: so glad somebody else remembers those

Jon Dron: it kind of does!

Eugene O'Loughlin: We need courses on EDM - what should we teaching?

Moderator (George Siemens): @Eugene - I agree!!

Adam Weisblatt: Ho w hard is it to get involved? 5 months of programming sounds daunting

Eugene O'Loughlin: See latest Gartner Studies - Analytics and Bus Intelligence tops list of needed skills. We have opportunity to apply Ryan's work in business.

Moderator (George Siemens): @Adam - I would like to explore that toward the end of the course - i.e. what skills do we need for learning anlaytics

Moderator (George Siemens): as well as what does a learning analytics team look like (i.e. skill sets represented)

SuzGupta: very exciting stuff -- now that we know through previous studies that (at least w the Carnegie algebra), intelligent tutoring sw teaches better than traditional methods, now we can hone these programs for even better instruction/learning.

Eugene O'Loughlin: I did!

Adam Weisblatt: @Eugene do you have a link to the Gartner info?

SuzGupta: me too -- need to get up to speed on the stat analysis that underlies it though

SuzGupta: fascinating

Adam Weisblatt: I'm going to try to plug PSLC data into infovisualization tools like Tableau

Eugene O'Loughlin: Adam - I'll dig it out (I'm at home now) and post on discussion forum.

Adam Weisblatt: thanks

SuzGupta: excellent point: "the students have different disengaging behaviors"

Schawn T:

Cris2B: cultural differences in disengagement

Schawn T: Sorry Gartner Study you are talking about??

SuzGupta: of course, if you're teaching in the US the key is how to reduce our students' disengagement

Maureen 1: Interesting work

SuzGupta: thank you, great presentation!

Adam Weisblatt: @Shawn thanks

Vince Jansen: thank you, very interesting presentation

Schawn T: @Adam, not sure if that is the report, but wanted to share.

jnes cambiasso: thank you.very interesting

Eugene O'Loughlin: Here it is:

kae: But those of us teaching in the online course or classroom wouldn't yuo love a dashbaord love to see who is distracted and who really isn't understanding.

jennymackness: Many thanks

Clare: please repeat this referrence..

Vince Jansen: interesting we use assistment!

kae: But won't something like Google analytics help us.

Cris2B: And is data-mining of this type more relevant to science, math than say, a literature course?

Francisco Reis: Thanks a lot Ryan for your very pragmatic approach that really looks for results and to make a difference!

Adam Weisblatt: To get this data from an LMS you will need to make sure the eLEarning passes the correct variables

SuzGupta: even with the tools to make the information highly relevant, there is still data overload. (thinking of NWEA MAP assessments)

Adam Weisblatt: @Eugene thanks

Schawn T: Thanks @Eugene

Eugene O'Loughlin: Welcome!

Adam Weisblatt: Don't you need data standards to make this work?

Vince Jansen: math has a correct answer what about dat amining, congitve tutor is more subejctvice courses.. isn't this the barrier in software solutions

Cris2B: and connectivist perspective -- autonomy, diversity, openness, etc.

khopkins: excellent, excellent question...would like to see this thread carried out throughout course

Moderator (George Siemens): @khopkins - need to make sure we raise it in the discussion forum

Cris2B: excuse me, but anyone wanting to join the Second Life group meeting afterwards could IM me there -- 2B Writer

Xavier Ochoa: Do you think that EDM is an evolution of traditional Educational Research, but with better tools and data, or do you think that there is something radically different or new about EDM or LAK?

Eugene O'Loughlin: Thank you Ryan and George!

Sheila MacNeill: thanks Ryan

Adam Weisblatt: Thanks!

edgaraltamirano 1: Thank you Ryan

Cris2B: Thanks so much, Ryan.

mhawksey: Thanks ryan

Len: good work Ryan, i got lost a bit

Len: but was good

Len: i will follow the presentation again

Me: Thank you, Ryan.

Tony Searl: plenty to digest. Thank you Ryan

Xavier Ochoa: thanks Ryan, very interesting talk!

kae: thank you!

Cris2B: Interesting, with selection/filtering, it seems we need to learn the skill of choosing what to attend to.

plug103: interesting stuff - thanks

Nelly Spanjersberg 2: Thanks Ryan and George

Moderator (George Siemens): @Xavier - do you mind dropping that question into Moodle?

Xavier Ochoa: I will

Mary McEwen: Also, can "Academic Analytics" be included in the mix of similar fields to be differentiated?

Jon Dron: I agree - but needs a separation of learning and accreditation, which implies competence frameworks which are kind of complx

Jon Dron: perhaps we can think in terms of smaller (or appropriately sized) chunks of learning activity rather than uniform length courses

Moderator (George Siemens): anyone else want to jump in?