Chat log for LAK11 Weekly Check in 

Feb 4, 2011 


00:29 - Stephen Downes 

So if you polish up your presentation for this course, is it lak lustre? 

01:18 - dave cormier 


02:11 - dave cormier 


03:15 - Kelly Edmonds 

use in content/courses: marketing research, stats... 

04:34 - Sylvia Currie 

05:10 - Jon Dron 


05:24 - dave cormier 


07:15 - dave cormier 

next on the mic? 

07:23 - dave cormier 

come on... someone else 

07:33 - Kelly Edmonds 

start with (research) questions 

08:29 - Francisco Reis 

Anyone saw Peter Kruse videos on the link George sent us today? 

08:46 - 

Fantastic video 

09:26 - Francisco Reis 

Later on i'd like to discuss those videos. 

09:38 - Jon Dron 

it's not that it's not possible - the risk is that we place too much credence in the results 

09:46 - Kelly Edmonds 

we need to ensure we start with what learning is and how it occurs so not to get overwhelmed by the technologies and data 

10:28 - Jon Dron 

I worry, for instnace, that the demotivating aspects of red lights are only worth risking if we are close to 100% sure we are right 

10:31 - Sylvia Currie 

Yes, anybody else know knowledge forum? 

10:32 - Stephen Downes 

Maybe a good question is, what sort of information is visualizable using analytics? Just counting numbers of posts? Doesn't sound that useful. But what other types of information...? 

10:43 - Shaun 

what was the name of it, made by OISIE? 

10:54 - Sarah Haavind 

knowledge forum 

11:03 - Shaun 

thx Sarah 

11:24 - Kelly Edmonds 

right and questionable data and constructs 

11:33 - Sarah Haavind 

Exactly exactly 

11:34 - Stephen Downes 

partial data, erronious assumptions - yes, exactly, major risks 

11:43 - Adam Weisblatt 

One problem is that the scale of the domains of what we are talking about are so vast: predicting an individual's desired next course vs adoption of pedagogies across entire populations 

12:02 - Sarah Haavind 

I think that's what is holding us all back 

12:13 - Stephen Downes 

the supposition that x,y,x data = 'improvement' is in itself suspect 

12:19 - Sylvia Currie 

Especially in open courses, where data is everywhere, people aren't logging in, etc 

12:20 - Sarah Haavind 

yes yes 

12:24 - Adam Weisblatt 

Each domain that we measure has its own considerations 

12:34 - Sarah Haavind 

It's already happening in online evaluation programs for course evals 

13:45 - Adam Weisblatt 

also, what  needs to be captured in order to measure and how much resource does that take 

13:52 - Adam Weisblatt 

Is the jice worth the squeeze 

14:06 - Adam Weisblatt 

Is the juice worth the squeeze 

14:18 - Stephen Downes 

what it means to have a hit on a website: success! $$$$! 

14:44 - Stephen Downes 

yeah I'm a big sell-out 

15:03 - dave cormier 

go ahead sarah 

15:12 - dave cormier 

ur just fine 

15:16 - Adam Weisblatt 

everything eventually comes down to investment of resources to produce value aka money 

16:23 - Sylvia Currie 

haha - give 24 hr feedback to students please 

16:53 - Stephen Downes 

I'm not available 24 hours - I take 3:00 a.m. - 4:00 a.m. for persopnal time 

16:59 - dave cormier 


17:14 - dave cormier 

i can 

17:27 - Sylvia Currie 

Here's the signals link again 

17:40 - dave cormier 

I'm nodding my head 

18:15 - Sarah Haavind 

yes exactly 

18:29 - Mary McEwen 

that would also depend on class - size, wouldn't it? 

18:29 - Sarah Haavind 

I'm nodding MY head :) 

18:42 - Jon Dron 

assuming a formal context, of course 

18:57 - Jon Dron 

the potentially biggest value might be for self-directed, networked learning 

19:29 - Sylvia Currie 

class size a factor.. as a way to notice who is doing what 

20:05 - Tanya Elias 

in training we often have no idea how what we've developed goes over with learners 

20:16 - Sylvia Currie 

go ahead Kelly 

21:11 - dave cormier 

back now :) 

21:15 - dave cormier 

sorry folks 

21:32 - Sylvia Currie 

Interesting...almost like making the process more transparent 

21:38 - Tanya Elias 

performance based learning :) 

22:07 - Francisco Reis 

We go back to putting on the student the responsibilty to what they are doing/following. 

22:27 - Jon Dron 

excellent points Kelly - it has *always* been true that what we teach bears only a passing resemblance to what and how people learn 

22:54 - Jon Dron 

at best, we might be modelling a process and offering snippets. The serious learning is outside our field of view 

23:01 - Therese Weel  <-- performance analytics 

23:50 - Kelly Edmonds 

yes, difficult to follow 

24:05 - Sylvia Currie 

Kelly's comments really hit home for work environment too -- how to make your daily work log available to others, how to include people in communication without bombarding them 

24:07 - Therese Weel 

sonar6 visuals 

24:31 - Mary McEwen 

yes!! analytics as it informs instructional design! 

24:41 - Kelly Edmonds 

Thanks, Therese 

25:42 - Stephen Downes 

link between analytics and recommendations? 

25:53 - Therese Weel 

Your welcome - I'll tweet those links under #lak11 

26:31 - Jon Dron 

@Stephen - yes, definitely - at least in George's view! I think this is still in adaptive systems when we are looking at using results directly to change what happens next 

28:24 - Sarah Haavind 

Linked In now visualizes connections which you can then label by professional group/association -- I thought it was "neat" but haven't thought of a "use" 

28:36 - dave cormier 

we're just having a friday chat :) 

29:05 - Kelly Edmonds 

I used it and it was okay. Not really sure how LinkedIn connections were linked 

29:41 - Sylvia Currie 

@Sarah, I've played with Linked In too. another one of those... this is neat, now what situations :-) 

30:06 - Stephen Downes 

the problem is, the paradox of measurement: any measurement depends on our preidentification of what is measured & what the units will be, and hence any measurement begins as inherently subjective 

30:25 - Stephen Downes 

thus, no measurement is an accurate and objective representation of the domain 

31:04 - Kelly Edmonds 

I agree Stephen - determining the construct/context of our units of measurement. These have to be thoughtfully selected and not 'slapped' together 

31:16 - Sylvia Currie 

@Mary, would be interesting to list out measurements that would inform instructional design 

31:18 - Stephen Downes 

this is especially a problem in education 

31:36 - Kelly Edmonds 

I think we are 

31:57 - Tanya Elias 

we also go  in a lot of wrong directions when we don't measure 

32:05 - Stephen Downes 

well, no, Dave - the core of 'how the internet works' is a 'hit' - but in a eworld of search agents and Akamai, what is a 'hit'? 

32:21 - dave cormier 


33:03 - dave cormier 

@stephen i was thinking the nature of the data... html etc... 

33:42 - Mary McEwen 

@sylvia I think that the most helpful measurements to inform instructional design will be more more specific to a design, than broadly such as at the  CMS level. 

33:45 - Tanya Elias 

what should/ do they want to be able to do at the end of learning? 

35:19 - Sarah Haavind 

it depends... 

35:24 - Jon Dron 

I guess the interesting possibility in this kind of thing is that we can ask these questions about learner X, not just 'learners' 

35:26 - dave cormier 

@sarah lol 

35:49 - Sarah Haavind 

it depends both on the learners and what ever you want your students to understand 

36:10 - dave cormier 

and then you have to figure better... 

36:14 - Mary McEwen 

or even something as simple as are the students viewing the content, and for how long?  Is there a correlation between that and other performances? 

36:55 - dave cormier 

i don't hear you stephen 

36:56 - Mike Cummings 

Mary that really is a key simple question :-) 

37:21 - dave cormier 


37:30 - dave cormier 

oh sure. 

37:40 - Mike Cummings 

@Mary teachers, course designers have intuitions but have no way of validating the significance of these thoughts 

37:55 - Jon Dron 

@Mike, Mary - it's a key question if we are interested in the efectiveness of our instructional design. May have little value to a learner 

38:25 - dave cormier 

@Mary my question then would be 'what other performances?' 

38:43 - dave cormier 

i r trying to facilitate and not comment. bad facilitator 

38:54 - Mike Cummings 

Its all about connectiveness :-) effective instructional design, measured against effective learning 

39:15 - dave cormier 

does colour affect the length of time people look at a picture? 

39:33 - Sylvia Currie 

From instructional design perspective, I think would be interesting to see if students are using collaborative processes you expect them to be using. 

39:43 - ljp 

You could measure what I do; but, it wouldn't tell you much about the course or it's design.  What I am doing is driven by the available time and my other activities.  Further, most video doesn't work on my computer.  My not using the video resources is a technical not a personal choice.  How will my lack of activity be interpreted? 

39:49 - Tanya Elias 

back to need to be performance based 

39:49 - Stephen Downes 

My 'time on task' data is frequently altered by my having a cat in my lap 

40:59 - Jon Dron 

@Stephen - I sometimes spend hours on a single 5 minute task (along with dozens of other 5 minute tasks at the same time, from the point of view of a tool that might be measuring such things) 

41:10 - dave cormier 

anyone else wanna weigh in no this discussion? 

41:10 - Stephen Downes 


41:31 - Mary McEwen 

exactly - Tanya! 

41:40 - 

But if everyone is spending hours on a 5 minute task, this is an important pattern 

41:41 - Stephen Downes 

people take courses for some purpose (versus) I don't know why I'm sitting in this lak course 

41:56 - Kelly Edmonds 

Formal education defines what is to be learned.. good and bad point 

42:20 - Stephen Downes 

I'm always an outlier 

42:28 - Mary McEwen 

or that stephen has a cat in his lap distracting him 

42:28 - 

blame the cat 

42:35 - Tanya Elias 

I think analytics can also be used to personlaize 

42:46 - Tanya Elias 

among big systems 

42:53 - Mary McEwen 

yes--tanya, another great potential for use. 

43:01 - Jon Dron 

@Tany - yes - this gets back to my point about why we are asking the questions, not just what kind of questions we can ask 

43:12 - Kelly Edmonds 

where is the attention of students? 

43:18 - Francisco Reis 

It's me! 

43:21 - Jon Dron 

to improve design, to monitor progress, to know what to do next 

43:42 - dave cormier 

hi :) 

43:49 - dave cormier 

that's not a problem 

43:54 - Therese Weel 

A Questioning Toolkit 

43:55 - Tanya Elias 

I really like those 3 jon, going to think more on those... 

44:26 - Stephen Downes 

Peter Kruse videos: 

46:28 - Mary McEwen 

is it possible to calibrate instructional interactions in a similar same way that we calibrate assessment items? 

47:35 - dave cormier 

@francisco i think so too 

47:37 - Stephen Downes 

'I link it, I like it' - Peter Kruse (text, English) - 

47:52 - Tanya Elias 

@ Mary: Do you student-intructor interactions? 

47:53 - ljp 

The problem with analytics is I'm always excluded.  Normally, I am an outlier and don't cluster well. 

48:26 - Mary McEwen 

no, though that is a possibility, what I had in mind was interacting with online instructional interactions. 

48:36 - Jon Dron 

@ljp - mass customisation vs personalisation - analytic methods can personalise for outliers too :-) 

49:03 - Francisco Reis 

Seeing those topics and their relations evolve over time must be interesting! 

49:15 - Kelly Edmonds 

like a communiity of practice 

49:25 - Francisco Reis 


49:41 - Kelly Edmonds 

emerging CoP 

49:42 - Stephen Downes 

clustering creates tipping points - interesting insight 

49:52 - Sylvia Currie 

design that system please 

49:55 - Jon Dron 

interesting that the segmented hierarchical threaded discussion process works in total opposition to this kind of clustering -we are fighting the tools 

50:06 - Niklas 

Is it possiblie to analyze information that tell the student and teachers about their socio-cultural context. How they communicate with, places, time...? 

50:08 - Kelly Edmonds 

Yes, Jon! 

50:51 - Jon Dron 

but again - if we ask the wrong questions we may get clusters of no great value to learners 

51:35 - Jon Dron 

but choice of algorithm makes enormous difference 

52:09 - Jon Dron 

content-addressable results vary massively depending on algorithms we use to mine 

52:24 - Jon Dron 

and that implies categorisation of a sort 

52:24 - Francisco Reis 

Isn't it defining connections more powerful than finding connections? 

52:48 - Jon Dron 

funnily enough that's what I was writing about yesterday - ened for adjustable alogrithms 

52:52 - Jon Dron 

need even 

52:57 - Kelly Edmonds 

we need some type of frame, Stephen 

54:58 - dave cormier 

anyone else for last words? 

55:20 - Sylvia Currie 

Been a great session! 

55:32 - Francisco Reis 

Congratulations, Dave! 

55:40 - Therese Weel 

glad to catch this session today - Thank you! 

55:42 - Sylvia Currie 

That's okay -- remember I'm the asynchronous creature 

55:48 - Jon Dron 

analytics :-) 

55:49 - merce galan 

Thank everybody 

55:56 - Claudia Guerrero 


56:01 - Tanya Elias 


56:02 - Kelly Edmonds 

Thanks so much! 

56:04 - Niklas 


56:06 - Jon Dron 

bye everyone - thanks for coming! 

56:12 - Andreas Link 

thx & bye. have a nice weekend! 

56:16 - Sylvia Currie 

Bye for now! 

56:21 - dave cormier 

tah tah