Chat log for LAK11 Weekly Check in

Feb 4, 2011

00:29 - Stephen Downes

So if you polish up your presentation for this course, is it lak lustre?

01:18 - dave cormier

ha

02:11 - dave cormier

tanya?

03:15 - Kelly Edmonds

use in content/courses: marketing research, stats...

04:34 - Sylvia Currie

http://www.itap.purdue.edu/tlt/signals/

05:10 - Jon Dron

hi!

05:24 - dave cormier

perfect

07:15 - dave cormier

next on the mic?

07:23 - dave cormier

come on... someone else

07:33 - Kelly Edmonds

08:29 - Francisco Reis

Anyone saw Peter Kruse videos on the link George sent us today?

08:46 - mike.cummings2009@gmail.com

Fantastic video

09:26 - Francisco Reis

Later on i'd like to discuss those videos.

09:38 - Jon Dron

it's not that it's not possible - the risk is that we place too much credence in the results

09:46 - Kelly Edmonds

we need to ensure we start with what learning is and how it occurs so not to get overwhelmed by the technologies and data

10:28 - Jon Dron

I worry, for instnace, that the demotivating aspects of red lights are only worth risking if we are close to 100% sure we are right

10:31 - Sylvia Currie

Yes, anybody else know knowledge forum?

10:32 - Stephen Downes

Maybe a good question is, what sort of information is visualizable using analytics? Just counting numbers of posts? Doesn't sound that useful. But what other types of information...?

10:43 - Shaun

what was the name of it, made by OISIE?

10:54 - Sarah Haavind

knowledge forum

11:03 - Shaun

thx Sarah

11:24 - Kelly Edmonds

right and questionable data and constructs

11:33 - Sarah Haavind

Exactly exactly

11:34 - Stephen Downes

partial data, erronious assumptions - yes, exactly, major risks

One problem is that the scale of the domains of what we are talking about are so vast: predicting an individual's desired next course vs adoption of pedagogies across entire populations

12:02 - Sarah Haavind

I think that's what is holding us all back

12:13 - Stephen Downes

the supposition that x,y,x data = 'improvement' is in itself suspect

12:19 - Sylvia Currie

Especially in open courses, where data is everywhere, people aren't logging in, etc

12:20 - Sarah Haavind

yes yes

Each domain that we measure has its own considerations

12:34 - Sarah Haavind

It's already happening in online evaluation programs for course evals

also, what  needs to be captured in order to measure and how much resource does that take

Is the jice worth the squeeze

Is the juice worth the squeeze

14:18 - Stephen Downes

what it means to have a hit on a website: success! !

14:44 - Stephen Downes

yeah I'm a big sell-out

15:03 - dave cormier

15:12 - dave cormier

ur just fine

everything eventually comes down to investment of resources to produce value aka money

16:23 - Sylvia Currie

haha - give 24 hr feedback to students please

16:53 - Stephen Downes

I'm not available 24 hours - I take 3:00 a.m. - 4:00 a.m. for persopnal time

16:59 - dave cormier

yes

17:14 - dave cormier

i can

17:27 - Sylvia Currie

Here's the signals link again http://www.itap.purdue.edu/tlt/signals/

17:40 - dave cormier

18:15 - Sarah Haavind

yes exactly

18:29 - Mary McEwen

that would also depend on class - size, wouldn't it?

18:29 - Sarah Haavind

18:42 - Jon Dron

assuming a formal context, of course

18:57 - Jon Dron

the potentially biggest value might be for self-directed, networked learning

19:29 - Sylvia Currie

class size a factor.. as a way to notice who is doing what

20:05 - Tanya Elias

in training we often have no idea how what we've developed goes over with learners

20:16 - Sylvia Currie

21:11 - dave cormier

back now :)

21:15 - dave cormier

sorry folks

21:32 - Sylvia Currie

Interesting...almost like making the process more transparent

21:38 - Tanya Elias

performance based learning :)

22:07 - Francisco Reis

We go back to putting on the student the responsibilty to what they are doing/following.

22:27 - Jon Dron

excellent points Kelly - it has *always* been true that what we teach bears only a passing resemblance to what and how people learn

22:54 - Jon Dron

at best, we might be modelling a process and offering snippets. The serious learning is outside our field of view

23:01 - Therese Weel

http://www.sonar6.com/  <-- performance analytics

23:50 - Kelly Edmonds

yes, difficult to follow

24:05 - Sylvia Currie

Kelly's comments really hit home for work environment too -- how to make your daily work log available to others, how to include people in communication without bombarding them

24:07 - Therese Weel

sonar6 visuals http://bit.ly/hC666D

24:31 - Mary McEwen

yes!! analytics as it informs instructional design!

24:41 - Kelly Edmonds

Thanks, Therese

25:42 - Stephen Downes

25:53 - Therese Weel

26:31 - Jon Dron

@Stephen - yes, definitely - at least in George's view! I think this is still in adaptive systems when we are looking at using results directly to change what happens next

28:24 - Sarah Haavind

Linked In now visualizes connections which you can then label by professional group/association -- I thought it was "neat" but haven't thought of a "use"

28:36 - dave cormier

we're just having a friday chat :)

29:05 - Kelly Edmonds

I used it and it was okay. Not really sure how LinkedIn connections were linked

29:41 - Sylvia Currie

@Sarah, I've played with Linked In too. another one of those... this is neat, now what situations :-)

30:06 - Stephen Downes

the problem is, the paradox of measurement: any measurement depends on our preidentification of what is measured & what the units will be, and hence any measurement begins as inherently subjective

30:25 - Stephen Downes

thus, no measurement is an accurate and objective representation of the domain

31:04 - Kelly Edmonds

I agree Stephen - determining the construct/context of our units of measurement. These have to be thoughtfully selected and not 'slapped' together

31:16 - Sylvia Currie

@Mary, would be interesting to list out measurements that would inform instructional design

31:18 - Stephen Downes

this is especially a problem in education

31:36 - Kelly Edmonds

I think we are

31:57 - Tanya Elias

we also go  in a lot of wrong directions when we don't measure

32:05 - Stephen Downes

well, no, Dave - the core of 'how the internet works' is a 'hit' - but in a eworld of search agents and Akamai, what is a 'hit'?

32:21 - dave cormier

:)

33:03 - dave cormier

@stephen i was thinking the nature of the data... html etc...

33:42 - Mary McEwen

@sylvia I think that the most helpful measurements to inform instructional design will be more more specific to a design, than broadly such as at the  CMS level.

33:45 - Tanya Elias

what should/ do they want to be able to do at the end of learning?

35:19 - Sarah Haavind

it depends...

35:24 - Jon Dron

I guess the interesting possibility in this kind of thing is that we can ask these questions about learner X, not just 'learners'

35:26 - dave cormier

@sarah lol

35:49 - Sarah Haavind

it depends both on the learners and what ever you want your students to understand

36:10 - dave cormier

and then you have to figure better...

36:14 - Mary McEwen

or even something as simple as are the students viewing the content, and for how long?  Is there a correlation between that and other performances?

36:55 - dave cormier

i don't hear you stephen

36:56 - Mike Cummings

Mary that really is a key simple question :-)

37:21 - dave cormier

nice

37:30 - dave cormier

oh sure.

37:40 - Mike Cummings

@Mary teachers, course designers have intuitions but have no way of validating the significance of these thoughts

37:55 - Jon Dron

@Mike, Mary - it's a key question if we are interested in the efectiveness of our instructional design. May have little value to a learner

38:25 - dave cormier

@Mary my question then would be 'what other performances?'

38:43 - dave cormier

i r trying to facilitate and not comment. bad facilitator

38:54 - Mike Cummings

Its all about connectiveness :-) effective instructional design, measured against effective learning

39:15 - dave cormier

does colour affect the length of time people look at a picture?

39:33 - Sylvia Currie

From instructional design perspective, I think would be interesting to see if students are using collaborative processes you expect them to be using.

39:43 - ljp

You could measure what I do; but, it wouldn't tell you much about the course or it's design.  What I am doing is driven by the available time and my other activities.  Further, most video doesn't work on my computer.  My not using the video resources is a technical not a personal choice.  How will my lack of activity be interpreted?

39:49 - Tanya Elias

back to need to be performance based

39:49 - Stephen Downes

My 'time on task' data is frequently altered by my having a cat in my lap

40:59 - Jon Dron

@Stephen - I sometimes spend hours on a single 5 minute task (along with dozens of other 5 minute tasks at the same time, from the point of view of a tool that might be measuring such things)

41:10 - dave cormier

anyone else wanna weigh in no this discussion?

41:10 - Stephen Downes

exactly

41:31 - Mary McEwen

exactly - Tanya!

41:40 - mike.cummings2009@gmail.com

But if everyone is spending hours on a 5 minute task, this is an important pattern

41:41 - Stephen Downes

people take courses for some purpose (versus) I don't know why I'm sitting in this lak course

41:56 - Kelly Edmonds

Formal education defines what is to be learned.. good and bad point

42:20 - Stephen Downes

I'm always an outlier

42:28 - Mary McEwen

or that stephen has a cat in his lap distracting him

42:28 - mike.cummings2009@gmail.com

blame the cat

42:35 - Tanya Elias

I think analytics can also be used to personlaize

42:46 - Tanya Elias

among big systems

42:53 - Mary McEwen

yes--tanya, another great potential for use.

43:01 - Jon Dron

@Tany - yes - this gets back to my point about why we are asking the questions, not just what kind of questions we can ask

43:12 - Kelly Edmonds

where is the attention of students?

43:18 - Francisco Reis

It's me!

43:21 - Jon Dron

to improve design, to monitor progress, to know what to do next

43:42 - dave cormier

hi :)

43:49 - dave cormier

that's not a problem

43:54 - Therese Weel

A Questioning Toolkit  http://www.fno.org/nov97/toolkit.html

43:55 - Tanya Elias

I really like those 3 jon, going to think more on those...

44:26 - Stephen Downes

46:28 - Mary McEwen

is it possible to calibrate instructional interactions in a similar same way that we calibrate assessment items?

47:35 - dave cormier

@francisco i think so too

47:37 - Stephen Downes

'I link it, I like it' - Peter Kruse (text, English) - http://www.goethe.de/wis/med/idm/fin/en6578052.htm

47:52 - Tanya Elias

@ Mary: Do you student-intructor interactions?

47:53 - ljp

The problem with analytics is I'm always excluded.  Normally, I am an outlier and don't cluster well.

48:26 - Mary McEwen

no, though that is a possibility, what I had in mind was interacting with online instructional interactions.

48:36 - Jon Dron

@ljp - mass customisation vs personalisation - analytic methods can personalise for outliers too :-)

49:03 - Francisco Reis

Seeing those topics and their relations evolve over time must be interesting!

49:15 - Kelly Edmonds

like a communiity of practice

49:25 - Francisco Reis

YES!. REAL-TIME!

49:41 - Kelly Edmonds

emerging CoP

49:42 - Stephen Downes

clustering creates tipping points - interesting insight

49:52 - Sylvia Currie

49:55 - Jon Dron

interesting that the segmented hierarchical threaded discussion process works in total opposition to this kind of clustering -we are fighting the tools

50:06 - Niklas

Is it possiblie to analyze information that tell the student and teachers about their socio-cultural context. How they communicate with, places, time...?

50:08 - Kelly Edmonds

Yes, Jon!

50:51 - Jon Dron

but again - if we ask the wrong questions we may get clusters of no great value to learners

51:35 - Jon Dron

but choice of algorithm makes enormous difference

52:09 - Jon Dron

content-addressable results vary massively depending on algorithms we use to mine

52:24 - Jon Dron

and that implies categorisation of a sort

52:24 - Francisco Reis

Isn't it defining connections more powerful than finding connections?

52:48 - Jon Dron

funnily enough that's what I was writing about yesterday - ened for adjustable alogrithms

52:52 - Jon Dron

need even

52:57 - Kelly Edmonds

we need some type of frame, Stephen

54:58 - dave cormier

anyone else for last words?

55:20 - Sylvia Currie

Been a great session!

55:32 - Francisco Reis

Congratulations, Dave!

55:40 - Therese Weel

glad to catch this session today - Thank you!

55:42 - Sylvia Currie

That's okay -- remember I'm the asynchronous creature

55:48 - Jon Dron

analytics :-)

55:49 - merce galan

Thank everybody

55:56 - Claudia Guerrero

thanks

56:01 - Tanya Elias

Thanks!

56:02 - Kelly Edmonds

Thanks so much!

56:04 - Niklas

Thanks

56:06 - Jon Dron

bye everyone - thanks for coming!