Chat log for LAK11 Guest Presenter: Linda Baer
February 8, 2011
Moderator (George Siemens): Linda - mic is yours!
Moderator (George Siemens): Great to have you hear, Linda!
Moderator (George Siemens): wait, to have you here!
busynessgirl 1: @George punny
SuzGupta: very clearly so here in NV USA
Moderator (George Siemens): I noticed that at the Strata conference last week - lots of opportunities for employment, but high technical/knowledge skills are needed
Wolfgang: Maybe people study the things that are not sought after.
Chris - Denver, CO: Does the jobs unfilled, include those filled by temporary workers? We are seeing a large temp worker trend in Colorado.
Francisco Reis: Where are those jobs posted? I'm thinking on moving on...
Adam Weisblatt: This is a great taxonomy for analytics
Chris - Denver, CO: I agree, I can see a rubric forming :)
Sylvia Currie: Analytics at Work book: http://www.tomdavenport.com/books.html
Moderator (George Siemens): great questions
Moderator (George Siemens): I suspect very very few organizations can answer those
SuzGupta: highly relevant for tracking high school drop outs too
Adam Weisblatt: LMS: help desk tickets as a percentage of transactions
Adam Weisblatt: Compliance rates by division
Adam Weisblatt: Compliance shared with regulatory agencies and senior management
SuzGupta: can you define "developmental education"?
Chris - Denver, CO: Also need to add: How do we fare against peer institutions? To help set benchmarks.
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): In those questions...I like that students are included in list of who needs to get the key information
Moderator (George Siemens): http://www.itap.purdue.edu/tlt/signals/
Adam Weisblatt: So analytics can aid the transition out of the factory model of learning
Francisco Reis: On the first day of class?!?
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Francisco, I was asking myself the same question.
Moderator (George Siemens): @Francisco - yes - if you have enough information about learner background, context, profile, you can predict - reasonably accurately - whether students will succeed
Francisco Reis: You become a victim of your past ;-) You ARE trouble!
Moderator (George Siemens): "best indicator of future performance is past performance"
Moderator (George Siemens): :)
Chris - Denver, CO: That is where your Instructional Design people come in. To help optimize structure of content and delivery :)
Sheila MacNeill: or you have a usable/useful eportfolio
Wolfgang: What's the cost of analytics compared to the win in improved quality? Is it a cost effective way for the organisation?
Moderator (George Siemens): Sure -
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): True! If they find their way to the online class, that tells us they're good navigators...and hopefully that info on how to get there was clear
Moderator (George Siemens): I'll do it via text
Moderator (George Siemens): can you speak about the costs and the practical ability of a "regular" school rolling out analytics?
Moderator (George Siemens): NSSE surveys are good for this
Moderator (George Siemens): i.e. they provide a sampling of habits of learners and support systems of university
Adam Weisblatt: What is the hidden cost of setting up the capture of data so that it can be analyzed
Cris2B: Mandatory orientation? F2F for online students?
schawn: Knowing what you can capture.
kae: But in the short term how can analytics help us?
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): NSSE survey- National Survey of Student Engagement
Moderator (George Siemens): http://www.nsse.iub.edu/
Cris2B: Got it! Thanks. Second Life, yes!
rog: Who do you think has the best vision about what's at the end of the rainbow?
Wolfgang: Currently it looks like analytics is driven by research interests of individuals, or am I wrong?
kae: So what analytics do we have for the deeper learning part of engagement?
Chris - Denver, CO: What is your thoughts on using a Proprietary virtual world like SL v. an open source virtual world like Open Sim?
schawn: what are your goals for capturing data for analysis?
Moderator (George Siemens): Linda - do we currently have the right tools that we need for performing analytics at a school/college level? If not, what do we need?
schawn: @chris - I perfer open source like environments like OpenSim because of the lockin and less configurability in products like SL
Moderator (George Siemens): Part of the challenge with analytics: mining, analysis, prediction, intervention - is that it's too complex to fit into an already hectic schedule for many educators
Moderator (George Siemens): Tools need to be greatly simplified before broad adoption
Francisco Reis: Perhaps, as the resource we were handled deffended, there must be high level managers changing mindsets.
Moderator (George Siemens): Right now you can use: R, DataWrangler, Python, Hadoop, etc
Moderator (George Siemens): I don't think too many school systems have the full capacity to participate
Moderator (George Siemens): Great responses, Linda
kae: But the vendors don't usually talk with the on the ground instructors.
Adam Weisblatt: Corporations want the analysis but don't wnat to spend resources in capture and analysis.
Francisco Reis: I think institutions sholud have evangelists/technologists!
Moderator (George Siemens): Is solution to analytic tool shortcomings to be addressed by entrepreneurs or researchers (or both)?
Moderator (George Siemens): :)
Sheila MacNeill: we also have to better within institutions at sharing data - free the data silos
Cris2B: @Chris & schawn: I use Second Life though the future is always uncertain. But, yea, so is life. It's been very easy to bring students with no experience into the world and feeling confident quickly.
kae: But the RFP are not usually done at a level that relates to the average instructor.
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Linda, you're doing a great job of compensating for no audio!
schawn: @cris2b - certainly depends on the context and familiarity of the VW you would like to use
Adam Weisblatt: That is the problem with LMSs because you need them to capture the data but they get in the way of the student ease of use
Chris - Denver, CO: @chris2b - yes, at my school we use a SL event to go through an orientation to get them ready for using in during the semester.
Moderator (George Siemens): I think you can continue Linda
Moderator (George Siemens): I'll try and grab additional questions
Moderator (George Siemens): :)
schawn: @chris @chris2b - VW is certainly a technology that can be used to keep students engaged.
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @kae, those are interesting comments -- wide space between faculty and RFPs, vendors, etc
Wolfgang: Is analytics taking away responsibility from students and shifting it to the depend on the institution, who has the analytic powers?
Francisco Reis: I hope students jet hooked in my Virtual World Super Forum ;-)
rog: Again. has anyone thought about where this analytical activity is going to lead - where will it end up?
Cris2B: @schawn & chris: engaged, immersed, and for lack of a better term, empowered. My teachers feel ahead of the tech curve for once in their lives and really enjoy the experience.
Moderator (George Siemens): @rog - not sure where it will end...
schawn: @cris2b Awesome.
Cris2B: @Francisco -- good luck with that project.
kae: @ Cris@B, Chris & schawn - so are you using any analytics for SL or another VW? Especially to help show or measure deeper learning?
busynessgirl 1: Of course, students have to "work" to be successful in education too. It's kind of a chicken and egg problem.
Cris2B: @kae: good question. That's why I'm here ;-)
Francisco Reis: The last Chrome Browser can already run it. By the end of this course I show you a demo or PDF documentation.
Cris2B: ;-)
schawn: @kae same answer cris2b gave. We have a vareity of "learning platforms" how do we use them to capture data to analyze
kae: @Cris2B - don't have the answer yet either. But I know there is a difference in the essays of students who do SL v. students not doing it with our humanities courses.
Chris - Denver, CO: @kae - The issue with SL analytics is that most of the tools are fractured so you need a lot of tools to do simple analytics. LL does not seem to be that open to working with individuals to get attendee data. :)
schawn: @chris - hence the reason you may want to go with an open source approach like Open Sim. I would imagine you have more freedom
Cris2B: @kae -- that's the kind of evidence that counts.
Adam Weisblatt: This is a very focued use of analytics as opposed to a solution looking for a problem
Adam Weisblatt: focused
kae: and not just SL and VWs but how do we look at the deeper learning in general what analytics can help us.
Moderator (George Siemens): @Adam - agreed...analytics adoption is heavily driven by increased calls for metrics and accountability
Adam Weisblatt: Of course there are 5000 janitors with PhDs
Cris2B: @Chris -- we have a security system that gives amazing amount of info on visitors to the island. I'll get info for you
Chris - Denver, CO: @Chris2B Thanks I'd look forward to that. ;)
Moderator (George Siemens): State, provincial, national,, and international (i.e. PISA) metrics drive funding and research
SuzGupta: so a developmental course is one that is remedial at the uni level? like, get you up to speed to start the college math sequence?
Barbara Dieu: analytics may measure a behaviour against previously set criteria but does not measure learning per se or future success in a career.
Moderator (George Siemens): @Barbara - true. but, behaviour can be used for predicting dropouts in the short term
Barbara Dieu: numbers
Adam Weisblatt: Anayltics are the shaddows in Plato's cave
Cris2B: @kae -- it seems ultimately that you have to marry the quanitative data with qualitative, hey, or the distributed data (a la Connectivism) to understand the results. Perhaps students reviewing their own data and reporting on what it means to them and instructors looking for patterns across all kinds of data.
Andreas Link: new Horizon Report 2011: Time-To-Adoption 4-5 years -> Learning Analytics
Moderator (George Siemens): @Andreas - link?
Francisco Reis: What is K20. Can't find definition on Google.
busynessgirl 1: http://net.educause.edu/ir/library/pdf/HR2011.pdf
Adam Weisblatt: How does this look in the high school environment?
Chris - Denver, CO: I think allowing students to view their own analytics v. the class average may appeal to some student's competitive nature.
SuzGupta: I think K20 = lifelong learning
kae: @Francisco
Francisco Reis: Yes? Thanks!
Barbara Dieu: http://horizon.wiki.nmc.org/2011+Short+List
Chris - Denver, CO: but how do we account for cheats? Once students learn how they are being measured, they will look for loopholes and exploits.
Andreas Link: @busynessgirl 1; thx :-)
Wolfgang: Thanks for the link
kae: sorry 12 means up to secondary level in the US, then the numbers past that means years in college or university
Moderator (Tanya Elias): @ chris if learning is competency/performance based cheating should = learning
busynessgirl 1: @Chris You can't design a system for those who will "game it" you have to design the system for those that truly want to succeed.
Francisco Reis: Ok!
Cris2B: @Tanya -- I like that
busynessgirl 1: @Chris It's like designing a classroom for exam days.
SuzGupta: so K20+grad school but not yet PhD or MD in US
SuzGupta: K20=grad school I mean
Francisco Reis: I see I'm not the only one confused with these Kn!
kae: and then the question is - can vendors who don't del with students day in and day out design to avoid the "cheats"?
SuzGupta: I think it's the alignment that's the key, not whether it's 11-14 or stop at 12, start at 13
Chris - Denver, CO: Do you see these initiatives pushing edcuational institutions to an Open Data model?
SuzGupta: pretty data visualization :)
Cris2B: Wonder how Quality Learning was defined?
Chris - Denver, CO: I love the dashboards. :)
Cris2B: How about for professional development? Any states have initiatives for state-level PD efforts?
Chris - Denver, CO: @Chris2B; I think each organization will have variation as to the definition of "Quality Learning" CTE will be different from Arts, etc.
Moderator (George Siemens): the benefit of dashboards (and analytics) is it gives us something to work with - a starting point for making decisions
Moderator (George Siemens): so much of educational decision making is a blackbox activity
Francisco Reis: Do we have retention in Arts? ;-)
Chris - Denver, CO: lol :D
SuzGupta: if our national governments are tracking what degree program = how much koney earned later, I doubt we care
Cris2B: @Chris --that's an interesting question in itself.
SuzGupta: money
Chris - Denver, CO: Also historical trending will be important as well. As is defining your base.
kae: nice - but is it going down to the actual advisors and student retention coordinators.
Adam Weisblatt: If you get a law degree but there are no law jobs available, was that success?
SuzGupta: timely question
Wolfgang: I worry that monetary considerations govern the data questions asked - this may lead to loss of "cultural" (non-profitable) activities, such as teaching non-viable subjects: indigenous languages, numismatics, theatre studies, etc.
Moderator (George Siemens): Great point Wolfgang
Chris - Denver, CO: @Wolfgang - This issue with compensation is that is must be closely associated with the actual goals and objectives and desired outcomes.
Adam Weisblatt: I hate data as a measure against a target. I want data to lead to action
Francisco Reis: In Portugal partnering is really an issue!
Chris - Denver, CO: True, Adam points out the need to include lead measuers as well as lagging indicators.
Cris2B: @Wolfgang: Good point. What gets measured, gets money.
Chris - Denver, CO: *measures*
Adam Weisblatt: How long is a piece of string - measuring doesn't have meaning without purpose
Moderator (George Siemens): Great presentation Linda
Francisco Reis: Do you push for standards?
Moderator (George Siemens): I'll field a few ques
Adam Weisblatt: Who drove the investment in these projects?
SuzGupta: yes, thank you!
Moderator (George Siemens): First: how do you balance the intangibles - such as humanities/arts, etc
Barbara Dieu: good questions @george
Moderator (George Siemens): I think that makes educators the most uncomfortable
kae: What data is commonly available that most instructors could ask her school, college or university for?
SuzGupta: good question!
Adam Weisblatt: I went to art school and learned abstract problem solving that put me ahead of people in corporate
SuzGupta: :)
Moderator (George Siemens): i.e. we want to see learning improved. But are concerned that it will reduce learning to a formula
kae: In the short term, what intervention for student success could take place based on this data.
Adam Weisblatt: Lots of artists in learning tech field
Wolfgang: Great point George
Cris2B: @Adam -- that's right. Pink says the MFA is the new MBA
HVX: agreed
SuzGupta: well, you can still spin earning a lot of money as a social good, since there is then less draw on social services
kae: Or if I wanted to plan for "ation" or intervention for nest semester what could I or someone else reasonably do based on the curent common analytics?
schawn: along as funding is tied to test scores and teachers are teaching to the test we are not developing our kids to be ready for the skills needed in the future.
Moderator (George Siemens): Linda - the growth of metrics at state levels (targets for enrolments, completion rates) seem to be the most significant drivers currently in analytics
Chris - Denver, CO: In economic development there is a huge push to develop and cultivate a "creative" industry in must cities.
Chris - Denver, CO: *most*
Moderator (George Siemens): Are analytics and metrics set by state legistrators closely linked?
SuzGupta: @Chris -- yes, because creative communities draw more location-neutral (bring $ from outside) workers
Adam Weisblatt: The problem with No Child Left Behind is that it was a one dimensional view of measurement
Cris2B: How about professional development? Any states with initiatives for analytics to accomplish this better?
HVX: and have global appeal
Wolfgang: @george ... and these metrics typically drive funding.
Moderator (George Siemens): @Wolfgang - yes
Moderator (George Siemens): Linda: what about training and developing analytics - i.e. educating educators on analytics
schawn: I can pass a test but may not be competent
Moderator (George Siemens): I haven't come across a degree or certificate program on this. I'm working on one now. Is it needed?
schawn: different types of measurements an analysis of these measurements are needed
Barbara Dieu: the cost of universities is absurd for what kids get in return so many leave as they do not feel it's worth it
HVX: yes, needed
Adam Weisblatt: So you need analytics to show the value of the institution
Sheila MacNeill: @shawn - yes, different views on the bottom line for different stakeholders, funders, students, staff
Wolfgang: Will analytics become a core generic skill for the wider public of lifelong learners?
schawn: what does it mean to be competent - hopefully more than passing a test
Moderator (George Siemens): I'm thinking more in the line of a post-doc certificate for educators to add on to existing skills/knowledge
Moderator (George Siemens): any other questions for Linda?
Cris2B: SAS, really? Will have to check into that
Moderator (George Siemens): Ok, well, we can carry on the conversation in moodle
Moderator (George Siemens): Thanks for an awesome presentation Linda!!
kae: but what can we as educators do with the analytics now? And what do we ask for?
Cris2B: Thanks so much, Linda.
Carline Romain 1: Thank you.
Moderator (Tanya Elias): Thank you!
Francisco Reis: Thanks!
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Thank you!
Chris - Denver, CO: Thank you gread presentation
Wolfgang: Enjoyed it!
Sheila MacNeill: Thank you
Adam Weisblatt: Thanks
Left on February 8, 2011 at 12:55 PM