Chat log for LAK11 Guest Presenter: Jon Dron

Feb 15, 2011 

01:21 - Jon Dron 

systems 

02:47 - George Siemens 

It's Jon! 

02:53 - George Siemens 

yep 

02:54 - ines cambiasso 

yes 

02:54 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Yes, hi Jon 

02:55 - George Siemens 

we see you 

02:59 - George Siemens 

no nose picking 

03:03 - Peiz 

yes 

03:50 - Doug Henry 

Crude... 

04:15 - Peiz 

That was funny... 

04:25 - Sylvia Currie 

The slides on slideshare: http://www.slideshare.net/jondron/learning-analytics-soft-and-hard 

05:21 - Doug Henry 

Maybe Watson could replace teachers... 

05:55 - George Siemens 

Depends how Watson does today on Jeoprady 

07:44 - Sylvia Currie 

CoFind: http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/jd29/cofind/index.html 

10:14 - George Siemens 

you're up to 5! (last week I think it was still 4 :)) 

10:54 - Mark Gbur 

to help administrators make program decisions 

10:56 - George Siemens 

anyone have suggestions for anything that is missing? 

11:12 - Mark Gbur 

I was thinking more on a department level 

11:31 - Sylvia Currie 

6. To help teachers to know how they are doing 

11:45 - schawn 

Help content to adapt to context 

11:50 - George Siemens 

what about policy/funders? i.e. decide how systems compare? 

12:13 - dave cormier 

Know how they're doing compared to what... that's the tricky part 

12:14 - Mark Gbur 

you can make a case that it is already being done for licensure in certain fields 

12:14 - Adam Weisblatt 

What about to tell learning functions know what is effective 

12:41 - Adam Weisblatt 

help learning funcitons know what to do next 

13:00 - Adam Weisblatt 

macro 

13:22 - George Siemens 

see this post as well: http://scope.bccampus.ca/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=16534 

13:42 - dave cormier 

huzzah! i love this question! 

14:01 - dave cormier 

what is a 'buuk'? 

14:12 - dave cormier 

no. 

14:14 - George Siemens 

use the green check mark or red x 

14:24 - dave cormier 

it 'could' be 

14:29 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Is a tool a technology? 

14:33 - dave cormier 

but it 'is' not 

14:37 - Mark Gbur 

depends on the end purpose 

14:43 - George Siemens 

@dave - is it the potential that makes it technology? 

14:47 - Adam Weisblatt 

technology is the method of using the tool 

14:53 - Sylvia Currie 

It is when you do something with it 

15:02 - Mary McEwen 

it's applying the stick to something that is the technology 

15:04 - dave cormier 

context george... as with everything else 

15:23 - Nicola Avery 

technology is a way of understanding how we are interacting with our environment 

15:24 - George Siemens 

@dave - but what's the context of context? I resist context as a factor 

15:41 - Adam Weisblatt 

This particular stick has a certain angle that might be useful for a particular task. Recognizing that use is the technology 

15:52 - dave cormier 

resistance is a fine context george 

16:08 - George Siemens 

Brian Arthur: Nature of Technology: http://www.amazon.ca/Nature-Technology-What-How-Evolves/dp/1416544054 

16:14 - schawn 

Recognizing that you can use the stick to perform multiple tasks (other than hosting leaves) is part of the technology 

16:40 - Adam Weisblatt 

@schwan agreed 

17:28 - dave cormier 

beatings! 

17:33 - Peiz 

lol 

17:34 - Hans Poldoja 

this stick fits very well with IEEE LOM definition of a learning object :) 

17:50 - Doug Henry 

hang a carrot on it 

18:06 - Adam Weisblatt 

Teach geometry 

18:36 - Adam Weisblatt 

how to create circles 

18:40 - Peiz 

Find water 

18:49 - Adam Weisblatt 

teach set theory 

18:55 - Mary McEwen 

binary system, and bifurcation 

19:10 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Make a magic wand from it? 

19:14 - Mark Gbur 

increase leverage, use for walking, ect 

19:15 - Adam Weisblatt 

performance art 

19:47 - George Siemens 

A bit like Gibson's affordances 

19:54 - Adam Weisblatt 

That is a learning opp 

19:56 - George Siemens 

(perceived, action potential) 

19:59 - dave cormier 

oh no. not Gibson again. 

20:22 - Adam Weisblatt 

Zen koans 

20:41 - Andreas Link 

hi, sorry to late ... 

21:33 - George Siemens 

agreed, Jon 

21:55 - Adam Weisblatt 

I thought you were being provacative 

22:08 - George Siemens 

steam engine, for example, is an assembly of numerous technologies, dating back centuries 

22:16 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

@Andreas... don't feel too badly. I had to step away from the computer and i missed the first 15 mins or so! 

22:40 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

I'm sorry! :) 

23:07 - Sylvia Currie 

pedagogy, for example, is an assembly of numerous technologies, dating back centuries 

23:15 - Wolfgang (NL) 

word technology comes from Greek techne "craft, skill" 

23:18 - schawn 

Is that the stick over your right shoulder? 

24:01 - George Siemens 

Jon has carefully planned this theme. He leaves nothing to chance 

24:03 - Sylvia Currie 

What's with all the sticks? :-D 

24:30 - Adam Weisblatt 

This is what I've been trying to explaiin to my clients 

24:37 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

LOL too funny! 

24:43 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

:D 

24:47 - dave cormier 

George you should hang out with Jon more... he's very open to others. 

25:14 - George Siemens 

@Dave - Jon is a nice guy. That's genetic. As you know, jerkishness is also genetic. 

25:36 - Wolfgang (NL) 

But are we not adapting technologies that were conceived for different purposes to use in teaching? 

25:59 - George Siemens 

see this recent presentation by Terry Anderson: http://www.slideshare.net/terrya/hub-de-summit-sydney 

26:11 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Like Second Life 

26:25 - schawn 

@wolfgang - sure - if there is perceived value.  and possibly measurements of that value 

26:28 - Adam Weisblatt 

That question assumes learning is something separate from the other activities that we take technologies from 

27:08 - George Siemens 

see here: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/kauffman03/kauffman_index.html 

27:08 - Wolfgang (NL) 

@shawn value often comes from creative inspired use 

27:26 - schawn 

@wolfgang AGREE 

28:35 - George Siemens 

knitting needles are bad replacement for Q-Tips 

28:46 - schawn 

but stronger than sticks 

29:20 - George Siemens 

great distinctions here Jon... 

30:28 - Adam Weisblatt 

Humans aren't alsways soft 

30:36 - Adam Weisblatt 

Machines aren't always hard 

31:14 - Mary McEwen 

Is the application of standards then by definition a "hard technology"? 

31:40 - schawn 

@mary - if you mean inflexible - hopefully not. 

31:42 - George Siemens 

"computer - softest technology ever created"..."assuming you're a programmer" 

31:43 - Adam Weisblatt 

Yes, and yet, standards can be designed with softness built in 

32:16 - schawn 

@adam agree - build softness into the standards 

32:52 - dave cormier 

@george so i guess softness is contextual 

33:17 - Adam Weisblatt 

So people actually hate some LMSs because they are soft. Too many bells and whistles 

35:38 - Adam Weisblatt 

MOOCs are crazy soft 

35:50 - Deborah 

I think 'soft' is nearer to 'elastic' 

36:34 - George Siemens 

Holist? or who-list? 

36:39 - George Siemens 

wholelist? 

37:10 - Wolfgang (NL) 

holelist? list of holes 

37:11 - Mary McEwen 

who's who of the wholist? :-) 

37:44 - Adam Weisblatt 

whole-ist 

38:57 - Deborah 

for teacher and students 

39:07 - Adam Weisblatt 

Right! 

39:49 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

So there is relativity to the "hardness" or "softness" based on who is using the technology- 

40:51 - George Siemens 

btw - for you twitterers follow Jon here: http://twitter.com/#!/jondron 

41:10 - Adam Weisblatt 

Learning groups beg for the flexibility and then are frustrated by that same flexibility...yet they forget the learner 

41:26 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Looks like soft/hardness reflects the amont of influence soemone has over the system 

41:32 - Adam Weisblatt 

Tools aren't evil 

41:50 - George Siemens 

LMS don't kill learners, designers do? 

42:33 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

I think designers who designer without the learner in mind--they "kill" the learner 

42:44 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Supermarkets have big influence over stuff on their shelfs, customers not. 

42:48 - Adam Weisblatt 

At least the learner dies of boredom 

42:49 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

or without the user in mind 

42:50 - Doug Henry 

Maybe the move to mobile will drive the change... 

42:55 - Mark Gbur 

@george I'd say policy requirements have more affect than anything w/regard to the LMS 

42:58 - Peiz 

@Tracy Agree. 

43:06 - Nicola Avery 

designers don't kill learners, learners are not a magic group removed from the design 

43:17 - ines cambiasso 

soft makes sts learn more 

43:21 - dave cormier 

@george Soundbytes don't kill ideas. People do. 

43:41 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

but who has more control over the outcome of the design? the designer or the learner? 

43:50 - Mark Gbur 

sure, but what we develop is based on what policies we need to support, but this is a vicious circle 

43:51 - Amy 1 

soft is loss of control for the instructor? 

43:55 - Deborah 

soft implies more effort for a good learning 

44:21 - Nicola Avery 

@Tracy depends? 

44:23 - Adam Weisblatt 

This chat box is a loss of control for Jon but he's handling it 

44:35 - vjansen 

Is learning shaped by the LMS 

45:19 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

if we involve the learner and the learner is willing to "receive" the involvement and become a part of the design... then yep. but many learners are not ready to receive the invitation to become a part of it 

45:21 - Mark Gbur 

@vjansen learning is shaped the creativity and commitment of whoever delivers the course 

45:24 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

and we can't force them 

45:38 - hema 

i agree so true 

46:00 - Deborah 

technology on e-learning has the risk that the student doesn't know which information is the correct 

46:06 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

nicole and I were speculating about who "kills" the learner 

46:07 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

:) 

46:36 - Nicola Avery 

@Tracey bad designers make life hard for learners 

46:50 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

i think that's what I was getting at earlier 

46:53 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

@nicole 

46:58 - Adam Weisblatt 

I love that Choosing when to choose 

47:03 - Nicola Avery 

:-) 

47:20 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

:D 

47:32 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

i like that too--choosing when to choose 

47:38 - dave cormier 

i've always seen bureaucracy as the most threatening thing to the learner... i see analytics as most dangerous as it becomes more bureaucratized 

47:43 - vjansen 

how do you distinguiosh between a bad designer and a good designer 

47:55 - George Siemens 

Jon's book: http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/jd29/research/inandoutofcontrol.html 

48:23 - Adam Weisblatt 

Twitter 140 char is hard but url shortening lets you choose to take the conversation elsewhere 

48:26 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

@vjansen--i think that is a matter of opinion, but IMHO--one char. of a "bad" designer is one that does not consider who they are designer for 

48:39 - George Siemens 

http://landing.athabascau.ca 

48:43 - George Siemens 

but you can't really get in 

48:49 - George Siemens 

cause we chose for you not to 

49:02 - George Siemens 

unless you are an AU student or faculty 

49:17 - vjansen 

@ tracey... true although they are desinged for education, so where do they lose the focus 

49:21 - Nicola Avery 

http://jnd.org/dn.mss/design_without_designers_1.html 

49:38 - Adam Weisblatt 

Chunking makes choosing more flexible 

49:51 - Adam Weisblatt 

yes 

50:21 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

@vjansen - it happens all the time. people lose sight of the real purpose of their work 

50:55 - K 

Is assembly aggregation?  And does aggregation stifle generative thinking? 

51:57 - Adam Weisblatt 

Waht does adjascent possible mean? 

52:21 - George Siemens 

@Adam: http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/kauffman03/kauffman_index.html 

52:30 - George Siemens 

it's a concept of evolutionary biology 

52:36 - vjansen 

@tracey true... 

52:42 - George Siemens 

you can't leap past what is possible now 

52:46 - George Siemens 

develop one area 

52:48 - Adam Weisblatt 

Thanks @george 

52:50 - George Siemens 

new possibilities 

52:58 - George Siemens 

develop another, a new range of possibilities 

53:06 - George Siemens 

any Questions for Jon? 

53:10 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Cool talk, Jon 

53:10 - dave cormier 

oh no. 

53:12 - dave cormier 

not george 

53:19 - George Siemens 

you take the mic, Dave 

53:22 - dave cormier 

that was awesome jon... v. thought provoking 

53:27 - George Siemens 

Please capitalize my name, Dave 

53:27 - dave cormier 

can't. taking care of children 

53:28 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

very interesting and thoughtful ideas, jon! 

53:29 - Sylvia Currie 

That was just excellent, Jon 

53:32 - George Siemens 

it shows respect 

53:38 - Nicola Avery 

great presentation thank you 

53:40 - Amy 1 

thank you! 

53:46 - hema 

thanks jon it was an excellent presentation 

53:48 - vjansen 

thanks Jon 

54:04 - Adam Weisblatt 

Great frameworks of ideas. Thanks 

54:05 - edgaraltamirano 

thanks 

54:06 - Wolfgang (NL) 

I'm wondering about component technologies. Many little hard bits can make up a soft technology, non? 

54:20 - Deborah 

a different point of view about learning... excellent! 

55:00 - Adam Weisblatt 

You need the LMS for infrastructure. This presentation gives ideas on how to adjust LMSs to make them work better 

55:40 - schawn 

you need an infrastructure - LMS may not be the ultimate infrastructure 

55:55 - Nancy late 

There are business drivers to be considered for sustainability 

55:59 - Adam Weisblatt 

What is the second tool you are mentioning? I couldn't hear 

56:06 - Jon Dron 

Elgg and Moodle 

56:07 - schawn 

LMSs happen to be the the flavor of the day 

56:11 - Adam Weisblatt 

Thanks 

56:39 - Nancy late 

And your helpdesk ability?? 

56:56 - George Siemens 

questions from anyone else? 

57:05 - George Siemens 

Dave - does Oscar have any questions? 

57:19 - Niklas Karlsson 

What do you see in Laan? http://mohamedaminechatti.blogspot.com/2009/11/laan-vs-activity-theory.html 

57:21 - schawn 

we need the ability to build the infrastructure to assemble or build these assemblies 

57:28 - Adam Weisblatt 

How about LEarning Process Management and therefore recognizing that Learning itself doesn't need to be managed 

57:56 - Jon Dron 

I agree Adam - to a point: for some it is useful, for some, not so much 

58:42 - Adam Weisblatt 

The problem is that learning is an investment of resources. You need to justify that investment. LMSs then become a necessary evil 

58:44 - schawn 

LMS assemble on my behalf.  No autonomy or freedom 

59:04 - Adam Weisblatt 

So it would be better to evolve the LMS than throw it away 

1:00:20 - Ken P 

The way UNIX evolved, yet it is still hard to use... 

1:01:09 - Sylvia Currie 

evolution doesn't = more soft..er hard 

1:01:15 - Mary McEwen 

I detect personal learning explosion when I want to dive deeper into multiple diverse threads of thought at once...thank you Jon! 

1:01:16 - Niklas Karlsson 

Thanks! 

1:01:32 - Peiz 

Thanks all. @Jon Thoroughly enjoyed this session. Miss your guitar playing and singing (telling us to blog every week). @gsiemens Thanks for the heads-up on Twitter.  @Sylvia, Brighton is still the place to be. Come back to hang out more! 

1:01:40 - Sylvia Currie 

Thanks! Really enjoyed this session 

1:01:46 - Jane 

Thanks for your talk! 

1:01:50 - Tracey (Ohio State U.) 

thank you, Jon! and thanks George S for posting this to twitter so that we could join the talk 

1:01:54 - Ken P 

Thanks!