Transcript from our Knowing Knowledge Elluminate session, January 10, 2007 Some name translations: Moderator = Paul Stacey Me = Sylvia Currie Joined: 2007-01-10 12:49:27 Hans de Zwart: hello Hans de Zwart: No mike yet... billkerr: bill kerr - teacher, currently in melbourne, australia Ju Gense: I am an English teacher in Presidente Prudente, S‹o Paulo state, Brazil Gerry: School District 60 Peace River North/Thompson Rivers U Hans de Zwart: I am a teacher in secondary education in The Netherlands. Soon to be e-learning consultant for the Dutch Moodle Partner: Stoas Gerry: Digging out today Me: Sylvia Currie from Lac le Jeune British Columbia Canada. Snow is up past my boots here! Hans de Zwart: In europe we have no winter: terrible skiiing! billkerr: 38 degrees Celcius in australia Ju Gense: Here is hot and rainy for about 3 weeks Gerry: -40 C with the windchill here Gerry: LOL Gerry: I'll trade Bill billkerr: wanna swap? George Siemens: hello Moderator: I'm in Vancouver Canada Gerry: Yes, I am noticing kristina: I can hear extra echo Me: I'm noticing some feedback as well -- not from Paul but I hear it from George Ju Gense: me either Gerry: That is right from George, but not from Paul Ju Gense: now ok kristina: now OK Hans de Zwart: ok for me George Siemens: i love promotions... Me: Congratulations on your promotion Gerry: Fine Moderator (George Siemens): beautiful Me: outstanding! SusNyrop: Hello, this is Sus from Denmark! Derek: This is Derek from Christchurch (10.00am) a latte is on the way to my desk. kristina: Kristina from Atlin Moderator (George Siemens): Bill - nice to see you here Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Hi Derek, I'd like a latte too Moderator (George Siemens): (bill kerr) billkerr: hi george Derek: I'm worried that my mike is very static-y Moderator (George Siemens): well, we can field text questions as well.. Moderator (Meeting Moderator): For those just joining the session let us know where you are from and what organization you are with akochan: Hello George, I didn't realize you are so close to me, from the University of Manitoba! billkerr: not used to elluminate, getting the hang of it Me: Big hug for Sus! (We go way back) Nick: Hi I run "e-learning" for want of a better word, at an education cooperative in Valencia Spain. To confuse you it is called Florida. But Florida is a Spanish word!! Moderator (George Siemens): btw - Bill Kerr, I, and others are doing an online workshop in a few weeks Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Welcome Nick Moderator (George Siemens): http://umanitoba.ca/learning_technologies/connectivisim/ Moderator (George Siemens): on connectivism Nick: I have no sound, after the joy of echoes earlier, is that correct? Moderator (George Siemens): feel free to register Moderator (George Siemens): akochan - you are where? SusNyrop: 10 pm here, I'm currently teaching student teachers at a college here in Copenhagen, using edublogs for their group projects. 289 students and 12 teachers involved - and we also talked a lot about your new book Georges Me: Feel free to register -- and registration is free (for the connectivism conference) Moderator (George Siemens): Sus - looking forward to your reactions akochan: I am also on campus at U of Manitoba. Moderator (George Siemens): ah... Moderator (George Siemens): small world Moderator (George Siemens): Moderator (George Siemens): Bill? Moderator (George Siemens): Moderator (George Siemens): you're coming through Moderator (George Siemens): just beneath the text box - click the all button Derek: Bill's Wiki: http://learningevolves.wikispaces.com/ Derek: and just found is blog as well: http://billkerr.blogspot.com/2005/08/connectivism.html Derek: aside: will you save the chat as well or just the sound/images? Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Derek, yes we're recording the whole thing. Derek: k Me: Seymour Papert's get well card: http://papert.media.mit.edu/ Andy: http://www.flowersforseymour.com Derek: Seymor's get well card: Derek: http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/2007/01/community-indicator-get-well-seymour.htm Nick: ok got it Liz Wallace: Just saying hi! Me to Liz Wallace: Hi Liz! Glad to see you here. Derek: One thing I've really liked about the book is the pictures . . . Liz Wallace: Let's talk later. Derek: My teenagers have this stressed out effect - I think theirbrains are growing also. billkerr: i think this is similar to Gardner's multiple intelligences SusNyrop: The diagrams are looking fine! Ju Gense: yep Scott Leslie: huh? Scott Leslie: no Moderator (George Siemens): ok Nick: or is it the publishers practice of producing new editions regularly to keep their market active, which builds in obsolescence Derek: Hm, certainly true for intermediat physics . . they even change the page numbers arbitrarily . . Nick: noone wants the 2001 edition, becuase there is a 2004 a 2005 and a 2006 edition but the knowledge hant moved as much perhaps, at textbook level Derek: My son is doing a building apprenticeship . . . Derek: The containers are really predefined . . . Derek: BUT, he could bnot do it without the guy working next to him. Derek: He HATED schol - but loves the work on the job. Scott Leslie: so is the thesis that we no longer need to learn the "hard" knowledge Ju Gense: what do you mean Hard? Nick: Scott Leslie: cf last slide; the stuff that isn't ra[idly obsolescent Scott Leslie: rapidly Nick: if its out there all we need is to connect to it, you mean?? billkerr: some knowledge is regarded as important but hard to learn, eg. the concept of democracy Ju Gense: um...yoou can connect to it when you need, that is it? Nick: i guess it isnt that simple billkerr: alan kay has a list of non universals, things that are not spontaneiously learnt Nick: yes you cant just swallow democracy, it needs chewing Scott Leslie: but we still expect people doing advanced physics to be able to perform calculus, other davanced math, the have those skills themselves Hans de Zwart: bill do you have a link to Alan Kay's list? Derek: For me 'hard' knowledge is like the basics of chemistry and physics . . air + petrol + spark + confined space = boom. ?? billkerr: * reading and writing * deductive abstract mathematics * model based science * equal rights * democracy * perspective drawing * theory of harmony (?) * similarities over differences (?) * slow deep thinking * agriculture * legal systems Andy: are we talking about bourgeois democracy or bottom up? Nick: these neural paths, are internal, brain-based research si about learning in the brain right Moderator (Meeting Moderator): So its not so much that knowledge is changing so fast as much as there being an increase in knowledge flow globally? billkerr: to andy, jst the concept of democracy isn't spontaneiously developed Nick: does connectivism diiferentiate between abstract knowledge (democracy) and skills (building a wall)? Nick: so how does the external part take place? Nick: are the neural paths (in connectivism) viewed as a map of the ideas that are out there billkerr: we can use the environment to leverage what ishappening inside out brains, eg. rotate a piece of a jigsaw puzzle Andy: I think even higher level ideas develop in response to material and social conditions. So real democracy is a very concrete and immediate problem to many. Nancy W: billkerr: good point andy Nancy W: Nodes to noggins. I like that. Nancy W: How many nodes till our noggins say "no more!"? Gerry: sound is fine billkerr: sound is fine Salvor: sound fine Jan Lai: no problem here Bart Sullivan: no problem here Rick 1: ok Liz Wallace: Fine Nancy W: loud and clear here Scott Leslie: yes Scott Leslie: it's back now Nick: and how does language fit in ( amix of knowledge and skill) language learning seems a fundamental issue in that respect Scott Leslie: democracy and connectivism Nick: that takes you back to maps maybe, the neuiral as mirror of the external billkerr: no real evidence that nerural can mirror external billkerr: AI efforts to achieve that have not been successful Nick: indeed Ju Gense: can't images be considered a language? Derek: Well, as usual, tons more questions than we have time for - George is doing well - I'd love more space to write chats and a space to write drafts . . Derek: This is great . . . Nick: yes i was going more at the mix, in language between automatic and conscious ability, how that learning takes place billkerr: i thnk images are simpler than language Derek: What about the Mona Lisa? do we all hear the same thing? Nick: images tend to lose a lot when they are translated to the verbal Derek: I think images are more complex than words Bill . . . Andy: language is a codification of meaning, which images only do to some extent. Ju Gense: but language either andy Derek: You catch, sense from images . . . Derek: But from diagrams, with words, it's different again. Nick: verbal language is codifcation, some images cannot be broken down to be verbalised Ju Gense: but somethings cant be verbalised Ju Gense: but demonstrated through images Nick: exactly but they have meaning Ju Gense: for sure billkerr: i was responding more to chat comments than what u wre saying george billkerr: i thnk what i was saying is supportive of a connectivism type of theory Andy: Pinker suggests that some kernal of a grammatical langiuage is hard wired by evolution billkerr: that derives from chomsky, i think that is now challenged by connectionist (not connectivist) experiements - ie. neural networks billkerr: that language patterns can be learnt, chomsky claimed it was impossible Nancy W: Can the two really not live together in some way? Nick: yes Nancy W: Or maybe I'm thinking about static and linear in a different way. billkerr: which two nancy? Nancy W: Nick, yes they CAN'T live together, or yes static/linear can live together with the knowledge flow. Nancy W: Or maybe I need to distinguish between design intention, and what happens in practice. Nick: i was talking about the ideas about language Nancy W: Ah, Nick, I see. I was remarking off of the previoius slide. Now two slides ago Nick: the fact that there may be an innate capcity doesnt mean it cant also be learned Nick: yes Nick: we got out of synch!! Moderator (George Siemens): Bill - yes - I agree that your comment was supportive of connectivism Andy: the innate capacity is exactly that, a cpacity to learn, but sometimes it's programmed to go off better in childhood than later. Bart Sullivan: everyone takes up wikis full time Nick: im chewing on the way my clear perception that i know things inside me and how i link to the things i know outside me, im thinking out loud here, what is the realtion, it seems lika clinbe to me Nick: sorry: like a cline Nick: yes yes yes george!!! Nick: spaces Nick: for it Nick: Einstein Nick: I dont teach I just provide the conditions for learning to take place Ju Gense: ok, answering the question: I see that a teacher should encourage students to interact with each other, for example, by simply requesting them to comment what someone said....That are things you are asking about?? Bart Sullivan: hmmm.. very buddhist approach - Scott Leslie: if knowledge and knowing has so fundamentally changed, is it possible for someone to be learned, competent, knowing (whatever, fill in your adjective) and NOT be on the network? Bart Sullivan: letting go to make space Nick: yes an no bart, i think you can do an awful lot through the way you define and adjust that space as the learners comprehension/connections/constructs evolves Ju Gense: (nick) but how can you allow learning to take place? which strategies can you use? Nick: you create situations, for example that promote dialogue between the learners about a particular issue or area Ju Gense: as i mentioned about asking each one to comment on others opinions in a blog for example... Nick: and facilitate that dialogue, you can suggest, ask questions, pointin useful directions SusNyrop: Ju, the comment feature in blogs and wikis can support student interaction - but to my recent expeirence, this ought to be encouraged as most students are still a bit unfamiliar with thinking as grouops, not as individuals in teh classroom perspective Ju Gense: For sure, how do you encourage them sus? Ju Gense: commenting on what they say? Nick: i agree, dialogue (the learninginteraction ) has to be learned, Ju Gense: I agree either nick Nick: it isnt the same as conversation SusNyrop: for example, by your own example, and perhals also by inviuing external guest readers on the blogs, etc billkerr: SusNyrop, Ju, have u seen the blog of proximal development, it is v good on the question u r discusiing Ju Gense: not yet billkerr: konrad G? Nancy W: Distinguish between network size from the perspective of relationship and from the perspective of information? Nick: the problem is there are so many great great bloggers!!! billkerr: http://www.teachandlearn.ca/blog/ Ju Gense: thanks Me: See you all in SCoPE! Take your questions there Derek: OK Derek: See you all . . . Nick: bye thanks SusNyrop: Thanks for organizing this session Sylvia!!! Jan Lai: thanks, very nice evening. ciao from Italy! Liz Wallace: Many thanks, George. Bart Sullivan: thanks Hans de Zwart: Thanks you George, Sylvia and Paul! Bruce Smith: well done. Thanks. Moderator (George Siemens): you're welcome Liz Wallace: SCoPE chat room? Moderator (George Siemens): a bit rushed, i must say Nick: a lot to get through!!! Salvor: Thanks. From out in Reykjavik, Iceland claire brooks: thanks everyone, even though I was late, this is a great time for australians to join in Moderator (Meeting Moderator): And you thought we'd only talk for 30 min! Ju Gense: These links will be really useful...thanks george, could understand a bit better about connectivism SusNyrop: Hi Salvor! Ju Gense: See you around... Sandy: Great successful session Sylvia. I will send you the link to the recording in a few minutes. SusNyrop: goodnight from Copenhagen! Me to Liz Wallace: Can I phone you instead -- maybe in a couple hours? Been sitting at teh computer since 5 0! Me to Sandy: Thanks Sandy! Liz Wallace: Phone 604-408-8804 Hans de Zwart: Elluminate worked quite well for me I must say Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Good to hear Hans Hans de Zwart: I like how cross platform it is... Moderator (George Siemens): Liz - sorry, caught your comment late Hans de Zwart: Usually this is quite hard for linux users like me. Moderator (George Siemens): yes, I should have captured questions Moderator (George Siemens): and followed up later Moderator (George Siemens): toward the end, i skipped most of the questions and comments... Moderator (George Siemens): perhaps a follow up discussion in elluminate Moderator (George Siemens): ... Me: George -- I'll grab the text Hans de Zwart: I would like one.. Jan Lai: great Nick: it would be nice Nick: alot to chew on Moderator (Meeting Moderator): Definitely lots to think about and yes George a follow on session at some point sounds like a good idea. Moderator (George Siemens): ok... Moderator (George Siemens): i'm game Me: Want to schedule for next Wed same time? Hans de Zwart: My augmented cognition device is telling me I have learned enough for today: bedtime Nick: sounds good to me Hans de Zwart: I would like another session (not for me to decide of course). I hope to have finished the book by then, just learned of its existence... Me: Thanks Paul and Sandy! Really appreciate working together on this. Moderator: It was fun Moderator: Expect you'll have a lively SCOPE discussion Nick: is there a way we can find out whether next wednesday will happen Sandy: Excellent session. It could have continued for hours. Nick: eg the scope list Me: Nick -- for sure, I'll keep everyone posted through SCoPE. Plus the asynchronous discussion is scheduled there for 3 weeks. Nick: fantastic