Chat log for session with John Fritz on Learning Analytics

Joined on January 11, 2011 at 5:32 PM

Carline Romain: Hello

Moderator (George Siemens): excellent

Ricardo E valenzuela Ruiz 2: Good afternoon from Mexico

luisa dall'acqua: Hi all

Moderator (John Fritz): Last question: Do I need to hit the polling button once I come to slide #5, or will you.

Moderator (John Fritz): Sounds good

Len: sounds good


Len: for those who might want to join the LAK11 Facebook group

luisa dall'acqua: will the sessions be recorded?

Len: i'm sure this one will be like before...


luisa dall'acqua: great

Andreas Link: hi

Len: if George is suffering with internet con. in ca. who am i to complain about it in the 3rd world

Len: still hoping i can stay with it for the duration...ready set...

Len: kiddin you man lol

Len: im wiggling and whining here to get some wireless bits across the halls

Len: i have the warmth but not the bits

Luis Torres Y: hola, hello, bonjour,

Len: right it went, back on

luisa dall'acqua: Greetings from Parma (Italy)

Len: Greetings Luisa

Steven De Pauw: Hello from Belgium


dwferris: Greetings from snowy Chicago

Luis Torres Y: hello Len

Len: Antwerp???

Moderator (John Fritz): Hello from Baltimore

Len: Hi John

Me: Warm but very rainy hello from São Paulo, Brazil

SuzGupta: Hello from cold but not yet snowy today Reno

luisa dall'acqua: Hello Len, hi all

Bryan Krusniak: Nice countdown timer. I've not seen that before in elluminate, now we just need music.

Len: warm and nice from lovely Guyana

SuzGupta: @dw -- how snowy is iti Chicago? where are you exactly?

SuzGupta: @Len -- sounds nice!

Len: very nice Suz


Me: @Ewout good to see you here

anchal: can't hear it my connection?

dwferris: I'm close to the lake on the north side about 6 inches so far

Len: no i don;t think

Asif: me neither

Steve Grim: I lost audio

Len: the audio went dead, oho

Moderator (John Fritz): I believe George is having Internet connection problems

Len: lost it here too

Len: no panic

Luis Torres Y: yes, me too, i los udio

Carline Romain: I have lost audio.

Len: yea man

Me: Yes

Asif: yes john

Luis Torres Y: yes

Gillian: We can!

Len: yea John

dwferris: yes

anchal: yes

Me: loud and clear

Ricardo E valenzuela Ruiz 2: yes

inescambiasso: yes

luisa dall'acqua: yes

Francisco Reis: Yes.

Len: George' bits are frozen over

Len: we need to byte em up

Me: lol

Maureen 1: You have an echo John

Asif: thought it was an emergent learning tacic

Steve Grim: snowing in Baltimore too?

SuzGupta: @dw -- my folks are in Wilmette; think I'll call to check up. stay warm!

Moderator: No snow in B'more but schools are closing an hour early. We're wimps


Steve Grim: I'm nort of you waiting for it to roll my way.

Steve Grim: north

anchal: lost sound again...

inescambiasso: can´t see anything on the screen

Cris 1: It rolled our way (Raleigh, NC) and the state is shut down.

luisa dall'acqua: no sound

Me to Ewout ter Haar: Oi está participando do curso tb?

Wolfgang: Aloha

Cris 1: y

Hamed Agha: YEs

Brian Austin: yes

luisa dall'acqua: yes

inescambiasso: yes

dwferris: yep

Len: yes

daja57 1: Yes

Carline Romain: Audio has resumed.

Gillian: Yes I can

Christina: y

Wolfgang: Sound is fine

Mary McEwen: yes

Ricardo E valenzuela Ruiz 2: yes

Nelly Spanjersberg: yes

Luis Torres Y: yes John

SuzGupta: audio is fine, thx John!

luisa dall'acqua: ok

inescambiasso: ok

jeanberg: I hear

SuzGupta: ok

anchal: ok


Carline Romain: okay, thank you

Cris 1: @Asif -- Good to see you here.

Sylvia Currie: We'll wait a couple minutes for George to come back

Karen: no sound

Asif: hey cris -- whatup

inescambiasso: @Len thanks. I´m in the group

Len: sending some tuesday afternoon sunshine and warmth for all...


Cris 1: @Asif -- wondered if you'd recognize me -- forgot to be Cris2B

inescambiasso: not clear

Moderator: I've done that

Richard Olsen: it is recording

Len: y

Steve Grim: y

Vince Jansen: yes

Cris 1: y

George Siemens: hi all

Gillian: Yes

Hamed Agha: Y

Bryan Krusniak: y

luisa dall'acqua: yes

Carline Romain: Y

Jim Peterson: y

SuzGupta: yu

Luis Torres Y: yes

dwferris: yes

SuzGupta: cool!

Cris 1: Hi there

Hamed Agha: Nice to meet you John.

Len: kool

SuzGupta: lucky for the kids

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Nice to have a webcam to get a glimpse!

Moderator (eLearnspace): i'm here

Moderator (George Siemens):

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Practical. Yes!

SuzGupta: absolutely

Cris 1: I appreciate the "Language, Media, and Culture" connection that John brings

Moderator (George Siemens):

inescambiasso: echo

Len: hmm kool

Len: can we have the full paper on the course page

Adam Weisblatt: can it also be used for demonstrating the value or lack there of of a learning program?

Asif: good question Adam -- making me think


Cris 1: Perhaps the value of the learning opportunities /transactions and perchance transformations

Wolfgang: We are experimenting with Stage5 using language technologies

Asif: we're at stage 0: not having yet considered analytics

Moderator (John Fritz): ECAR study

Carline Romain: What if you are at two institutions?

Mary McEwen: where we ARE or where we are researching (WANT to be)

luisa dall'acqua: we are testing stage 5

Steve Grim: It appears Stage 5 is dependent on Stage 2, but not necessarilt 3 or 4. Agree?

Len: Asif, we are also at stage ZERO

Gillian: I would suggst we could have both B and E!!! (no middle)

Len: most ppl are prob at stage 0

Len: 33/81???

Asif: hey len -- our challenge is pushing this in our own institutions

Bodong C: have no idea about it, since it's more an institutional level stuff.

Carline Romain: B at the main school

Wolfgang: Stage 5 is not institutionalised

daja57 1: We're probably not a random sample; somewhat self-selected if we're on this course

Cris 1: @daja57 -- good point

Moderator (George Siemens): the end stages is where we can expect the greatest impact...

Moderator (George Siemens): it's nice to play around at a classroom/extraction level

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): People keel over at the extraction and reporting stage. No steam left to do anything with those reports!

Cris 1: that's my interest -- beginning at the classroom level -- playing would be fun

Moderator (George Siemens): fyi - Kimberly Arnold (from Purdue) will be presenting later in this course

Gillian: Very true, Sylvia

Wolfgang: Impact in end stages is limited at present as they depend very much on accuracy of analytics/predictions of behaviour analysis

Gillian: Wolfgang: and also speed?

Wolfgang: Indeed real time is still wishful thinking at present

Cris 1: Oh, dear, the gradebooks are terrible. Yep, I never use them.

Len: whya re they terrible?

Len: usability/>?

Gillian: We're forced to use them - and they are still terrible!

Cris 1: There's not the ease of readability or feedback in Moodle.

Asif: @cris -- agreed

Carline Romain: I would love to use it at the one institution that has it, but many students cannot access the system (reasons vary from lack of computer access to resistance of computer/blackboard system use to systematic glitches.


Len: good thanks Gillian

Carline Romain: The other schools do not possess such a system-- at least one that is for higher education use.

Me to Leigh Blackall: @leigh this can only be done in LMS and closed silos, I suppose.

Richard Olsen: Good question, should be asked more

Len: a place to lump course material??? bb

Len: check MIT open courseware

Len: :p

Adam Weisblatt: Analytics is THE deliverable of an LMS so you need to use the analytics to SELL the LMS.

Moderator (George Siemens):

Moderator (George Siemens): students should be able to see everything the institution sees about their activities

SuzGupta: I thought learning was the key deliverable of a (an) LMS

Len: good point GS

Leigh Blackall: I can think of a few ways to do it outside. Wordpress for example, if an institution used that. But that just another LMS. Manually could be easy too...

Moderator (George Siemens): learning analytics should be student-facing, not only admin/teachers

Bodong C: democratize analytics

Adam Weisblatt: You don't learn from an LMS. It is just a tool to facilitate

Asif: back to Adam's question -- student analytics to evaluate institutions?

Leigh Blackall: Manually would solve the problem of this automatic model - judgement

Len: what 'analytics' can i use to measure how well my facebook groups are doing for students tutorials dev?

Cris 1: @Carline -- Google Docs is really helpful for communicating with students about grades in a 1 to 1 portfolio.

SuzGupta: true; you learn from the underlying course

Angela van Barneveld: You don't learning from learning analytics either. They are just another source of information.

Nancy Parker --Athabasca: Data mining rule... stay away from production systems

Me to Leigh Blackall: I do not like looking at this data on Moodle for instance

Luis Torres Y: is important the sensation of the context awareness,

Leigh Blackall: I don't like looking at Moodle full stop!

psychemedia: personal analytics cf. VRM - Doc Searls et al.

Me to Leigh Blackall:

Carline Romain: True, Cris 1. Thanks. There still is the issue of access with which to contend. Some students have BBS systems that are not compatible with Google (believe it or not) I still will keep trying.

Angela van Barneveld: Signals (@Purdue) sends messages to both student and instructor...awareness and then intervention as needed can occur after that.

Cris 1: @Carline -- good luck to you

inescambiasso: echo

Len: good students???

Len: wow!!!

Me: the one who follow the rules

Carline Romain: T@Cris 1 Thank you.

Adam Weisblatt: students who make the effort to learn

Len: our dept philosophy is "no willing student left behind"

elaines 3: I have heard of their existence but it's only been rumours..

Gillian: Good differntiation in the speech there: interested in how good students use the system (BB) not the other way around.

Angela van Barneveld: So, the CMS/LMS track behaviours....yes. And that provides data for 'predicting' success.

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): As admin for an institutional LMS in a previous life we found students are a little obsessed with checking gradebook

Asif: as a student, I agree

dianne: Checking gradebook less useful than text cmts frm instructor in gradebook


Bodong C: that's so true!

Vince Jansen: @sylvie is that good or bad?

SuzGupta: seeing that at pre-college level too when it's available

luisa dall'acqua: basically this data should appear in the student e-portfolio

SuzGupta: perhaps it's the novelty of it right now? (not sure)

elaines 3: Students are always interested in grades I know I was.

Angela van Barneveld: Feedback on SIgnals program revealed students preferred personalized messages vs canned messages. Understandable.

SuzGupta: addicts

SuzGupta: (epeat users)

Leigh Blackall: How often do the bloggers here check their own blog stats?

Len: grade addicts

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Vince good question! As dianne says comments from instructor more useful.

kae: so having this tool does ( and the above mentioned obsessiveness with grades) are we looking at gamification as a way to promote student success or student success behaviors.

SuzGupta: @Len -- yup

Angela van Barneveld: @Leigh - there are blog stats?

psychemedia: Check blog stats - once an hour?! heh heh

Me: @leigh sometimes, when I have nothing else to do

Wolfgang: John, do you do frequency tracking?

Moderator (eLearnspace): Any questions for John?

Adam Weisblatt: By using Blackboard do you mean taking eLEarning or using other features

Christy: How much do you use demographics/psychographics to analyse your populations?

Len: sometimes i feel all students are interested in are grades

Jenny: Do students want to see only their own stats or everyone else's as well?

daja57 1: Does telling the students the information distort their behaviour?

Carline Romain: How uniform is instructor usage of the systems across the board?

dianne: Gamification as done well does not = report cards/badges by themselves need to marry informatics with engagement (as in gd games)

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @leigh, when I do check personal blog stats but I don't do anything with the information.

Adam Weisblatt: Do you have a breakdown of usage of Bb features?

SuzGupta: @kae -- I'm interested in this too -- earning badges/leveling up etc in online learning environments. Leaderboards. Related to course content activities, not just grades

Gillian: One of the biggest problems with tracking duration could be the type of students and their locations (e.g. military away from base)

Len: we are working towards a GRADE in this course, are we

Cris 1: Once students understand Activity Reports in Moodle they learn to play the system.

Asif: @len -- so then facilitators obsessively checking for responses to their discussion posts another kind of addict?

Len: perhaps

kae: so do any of your instructors have requirement on number of login or check-ins? And do we see required check-ins for required durations?

Len: maybe those counting the responses and using them for stuff

Me: playing the system is the most creative activity stds engage in such environment

Cris 1: @Barbara

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Cris 1 and good for them!

Asif: i'm a good/bad instructor because I have x amount of responses from student

Bodong C: Does students being "good or bad" drive their use of Blackboard (and results in a difference in their final scores), or does using Blackboard make them to be "good or bad?"

Leigh Blackall: We need a browser plugin

kae: @SuzGupta and how we design for success and engagement not just pointification.

Len: what analytics are useful for me when using social software to support courses

Gillian: Bodong: I'd say that the fractured LMS is a real issue and some students just cannot use BB the whole time.

Richard Olsen: we've been developing a tool that tracks distributed content across diverse websites

Leigh Blackall: A browser plugin would make the perfect LMS for a distributed analytics model

Asif: @richard -- cool & necessary next step

Moderator (George Siemens): tools like radian6 or Klout might be interesting to explore

Moderator (George Siemens): i.e. distributed analytics

Thieme Hennis: how could you use analytics for an (accredited) online reputation? how does this look in a few years time? how does this connect with your other online activities? will a standard emerge?

Cris 1: @ Sylvia -- it is good because in this case they are teachers learning to use Moodle and they have both the teacher and student perspectives

luisa dall'acqua: @ george logging and datamining products?

Richard Olsen: don't blog but check other websites every couple of weeks

Luis Torres Y:

SuzGupta: *wow* -- would love to learn more about what he's doing

Luis Torres Y:

Moderator (George Siemens): please do

Len: "students take more responsibility for their own learning"

Len: love that cliche

Wolfgang: Difficult to distinguish between the benefits of technology vs the benefits from an inspired teacher. Technology cannot make a good teacher in my experience.

Moderator (George Siemens): LAK11


Richard Olsen: @leigh that is exactly what we're doing

Moderator (John Fritz):

Leigh Blackall: @Richard could you comment me a reference

Moderator (George Siemens): thx John!

Moderator (George Siemens):

kae: but that's just BB.

Asif: what queries do you use?


Asif: thanks

Richard Olsen: @leigh don't have any links as its still in private beta, could send you a ppt

Moderator (George Siemens): Tinto has provided a good foundation for tackling analytics

Leigh Blackall: @Richard anything would be nice. I'd love to share some ideas on the development too

Angela van Barneveld: I agree.

Moderator (George Siemens): particularly, the lack of academic and social integration as a factor for dropouts

Angela van Barneveld: Difference between being given an education and GETTING ONE.

Me: agree, George

Richard Olsen: @leigh would love too, currently we have only a very vague holding page at

Asif: 'do no harm'

Leigh Blackall: Exellent question! Phew!

Leigh Blackall: @Richard - thanks

elaines 3: Agreed students expectations of what they should be doing sometimes need to be challenged.

Claudia Guerrero: are ther information about professors or activities?

Leigh Blackall: I perhaps get too easily distracted by the ethical questions around this analytics topic

Moderator (George Siemens): we've found, with open courses, learner autonomy, self-efficacy, etc. are critical

Moderator (George Siemens): learners need to see value for what they are doing and why they are there

Irwin DeVries: Do we also have a responsibility to learn what works and doesn't and improve our courses accordingly

Len: i want to see the value here and now, sometimes hard GS

Asif: @irwin -- nice

Cris 1: I appreciate Dan Pink's DRIVE and the need for autonomy, mastery, and purpose to motivate

Len: the immediacy of what we want to learn or think we should

dianne: How others are doing doesn't tell me about my own learning issues though (?)-not a fan of normative grading

Asif: @irwin -- are the 'we' you describe students or instructors?

Irwin DeVries: Instructors

Asif: i'm thinking students -- improving courses as a result of analytics

Irwin DeVries: @ Asif - by getting their feedback into the course improvement cycle as well

Moderator (George Siemens): @Len - it is...but if we want to move from instructors pushing learners to learners being somewhat self-motivated, we need to explore it

Len: but you know what? at the beginning of many courses, we "tell" students what our objectives are

Thieme Hennis: @George perceived value is indeed important, but the task size as well: answering a question on Hunch is easier than following this whole course. therefore flexibility and self-organization is needed we need support for that

Cris 1: @Irwin -- that would be so helpful rather than waiting for a one-time end-of-course eval

Irwin DeVries: @ Christ - exactly

Thieme Hennis: for more Blackboard analysis, please consult PhD thesis Piet van der Zanden

Irwin DeVries: @Chris - sorry for the typo

Cris 1: @Irwin

Len: Thieme, can u please post the link to that thesis if u have?


Len: alot of links shared here, can we share them in the FB group please?

Thieme Hennis:

Cris 1: Does Blackboard own Elluminate or vice versa?

luisa dall'acqua: what about extended student e-portfolio functionality like in sakai?

Moderator (George Siemens): or tag them with LAK11 on diigo/delicious

Me: @Chris1 - it does

Thieme Hennis: okidoki

Len: thanks Thi...

Moderator (George Siemens): @Chris - BB owns elluminate

Cris 1: @Barbara and George -- thanks

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Irwin seems a course "meta" discussion should always be a requirement. I can't imagine teaching without a separate forum to talk about the course

Len: thats a great point Sylvia

Asif: @sylvie -- perhaps the 'meta' should be formalized?

Len: i will be doing more of that soon

dianne: Might be more interesting to assign grades to areas of individual competencies, e.g, make the pts assigned to each aspect of a rubric that leads to a grade visible.

Cris 1: @Sylvia -- would love to learn more. I have a "Live the Question" (Rilke-inspired) forum which helps.

Richard Olsen: can we have those links again?

Maureen: Excellent presentation

Len: @Sylvia - let us know more abotu your "meta" thingy

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Asif, yes maybe. Seems a "news" forum is always a default. Maybe a meta forum should be (in LMSs which is what most folks are using)

Len: good presentation John

Carline Romain: Thank you. Magnificent presentation.

Vince Jansen: thanks John very informative

elaines 3: Thanks John. Given me lots to think about.

luisa dall'acqua: thanks John

marcellamarcelli: thanks

Maureen: Did you have any privacy issues to contend with?

Abelardo Pardo: Good talk John!

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Len, love that - meta thingy I'll make a note to blog about it!

Len: John, we've been playing around with FB groups to support teaching and learning...very much exploratory...any ideas as to how we can go about "measuring" the value of what we do

Len: @sylvia - please share your blog with us on the fb group

Len: thanks

Me: I am relieved @JOhn

Asif: @sylvia -- we always ask students to 'reflect' on learning activities -- but rarely do we ask them to do so in terms of the effectiveness of the course itself


Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Len noted

Adam Weisblatt: How would this translate to the corporate environment...the regulatory environment?

Gillian: This was really useful but I'm wondering about the differences that will be required in ethical interventions in standardised instruction institutions and those that allow professorial freedom. The managing of the two styles of reporting/intervention will have to be very different. Hmm - just mulling the problem here,,,

Cris 1: @Asif: especially pubically.

Asif: @cris -- privacy issues

Wolfgang: We need bring in more qualitative analytics, how good is what students do - not so much how often they do it or which tool they use, download numbers etc. Qualitative analytics can only go so far.

Cris 1: @Asif - held my breath and hoping you didn't see that

Me: cognitive and socio-cultural awareness, I'd say

dianne: Curves are notoriously dependent on numbers...danger of people making too much of poor data

Asif: lol

Gillian: Agree: qualitative also important.

Simon Buckingham Shum 1: Thanks John

Wolfgang: Limits to quantitative analytics I meant.

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Asif, oh interesting. I also have (somewhere!) a self-assessment tool on collaborative processes that I've used. I'll dig it out.

Asif: cool


Me: Everytime I see all the data I remind myself tha the map is not the territory

Carline Romain: @John If you encountered it, how were you able to bypass faculty resistance to use of the LMS? Given that without faculty use, there is no systemwide analysis that is readily available. In my experience, the students who were reticent to use the system cited that other faculty did not use it so theiir 'lives' were rendered uncomfortable, while the others wholly embraced the process and all that it entails.

dianne: Think a reading article made an important really have to collect the info that's tied to the outcome you want to look at. Think the numbers of A's, B's, D's etc don't really cut it.

Wolfgang: So far looks like statistical analysis of logs is most of what institutions do.

Moderator (John Fritz): Here's the Tim Hardy (Economics) case study I mentioned:

SuzGupta: thx!

Gillian: Lining up the collection of data, the outcomes and the wider world (employability, social capital, research...) needs thinking through

daja57 1: @Wolfgang agree. Educational data typically soft. Arguably more informative but harder to analyse.

Len: peeps on the FB group please help post the links on our group...if u can


Cris 1: So will Learning Analytics create more pressure from admins to use the university LMS? This could be bad news if you're using the open Web.

dianne: Thanks for a thought-provoking talk, John.

Len: Analytics for open systems

Asif: @cris -- excellent point

SuzGupta: John, thank you -- lots to think about here.

Cris 1: @Asif: thanks. working on my spelling.

Asif: analytics sez yer improvin'


Irwin DeVries: @ Asif Hunch predicted that

Asif: lol

Len: Activity is also an indicator or quality?

Len: someone will interpret it John

Len: lol

Mary: Good point, Len.

Cris 1: Gotta love the comic relief here.

Asif: helps prevent dropout

Me: capture and control ...hmmm

Len: do i need to apply 'analytics' to the open web wher ei do some discourse


Cris 1: @Len: there much to be learned from George's MOOCs about that

Richard Olsen: i think as we move towards openness around our analytics we'll find technical solutions that address privacy issues eg. translucent databases - at the moment it is not a priority for those with the data

Thieme Hennis: This looks like a lot of questions but in fact it is one: how could you use analytics for an (accredited) online reputation? how does this connect with your other online activities? will a standard emerge? So: how will the learning activities and achievements and reputation you do online combine with the activities you do within a university or school? Do schools and universities HAVE TO move to more web-based, open environments -- thus have less control -- and not constrain students to THEIR learning environments?

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Interesting comment about building faculty community -- emerged through shared data

Wolfgang: Is this because innovative teachers are often good teachers?

Nancy Parker --Athabasca: So the data says good instructors are active and good students are active...

Moderator (John Fritz): @Wolfgan: Yes, I think so

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): So many excellent comments and questions from the past hour to build on!

Wolfgang: Or the other way round: good teachers are innovative.

Len: John good job

Irwin DeVries: Layer of discourse - insight between data and conclusions: essential - data-informed ok, but data driven...

Gillian: @Wolfgang - or flexible?

Wolfgang: Thanks a lot guys!

Len: my internet stayed true

Richard Olsen: thank you John, very informative

Asif: very nicely done -- muchas gracias

Matthieu Esteve: Thanks a lot!

Maureen: Copy of slides?

Mary: Thanks. When will this be posted, George?

Cris 1: Thanks, John, for getting us off to great start

Gillian: Thanks a lot!

Leigh Blackall: Thanks John and the crew organising

Bodong C: Thanks a lot!

daja57 1: Many thanks John and George

Thieme Hennis: thanks

Me: Thank you very much

Carline Romain: Excellent. Thank you.

kae: thank you very much!

Irwin DeVries: thanks

Moderator (Sylvia Currie): As soon as we leave the room

Christy: Mnay thnask - interested in more dialogue about activity vs productivity measures

Len: this chat log

Len: is good to share

Michael Rees: Many thanks John and George

Len: do we have em?

Mary: Thanks.

Len: GS do we save the chat logs too????

Moderator (George Siemens):


Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Absolutely. Send 'em my way