Chat log for session with John Fritz on Learning Analytics
Joined on January 11, 2011 at 5:32 PM
Carline Romain: Hello
Moderator (George Siemens): excellent
Ricardo E valenzuela Ruiz 2: Good afternoon from Mexico
luisa dall'acqua: Hi all
Moderator (John Fritz): Last question: Do I need to hit the polling button once I come to slide #5, or will you.
Moderator (John Fritz): Sounds good
Len: sounds good
Len: for those who might want to join the LAK11 Facebook group
luisa dall'acqua: will the sessions be recorded?
Len: i'm sure this one will be like before...
luisa dall'acqua: great
Andreas Link: hi
Len: if George is suffering with internet con. in ca. who am i to complain about it in the 3rd world
Len: still hoping i can stay with it for the duration...ready set...
Len: kiddin you man lol
Len: im wiggling and whining here to get some wireless bits across the halls
Len: i have the warmth but not the bits
Luis Torres Y: hola, hello, bonjour,
Len: right it went, back on
luisa dall'acqua: Greetings from Parma (Italy)
Len: Greetings Luisa
Steven De Pauw: Hello from Belgium
dwferris: Greetings from snowy Chicago
Luis Torres Y: hello Len
Moderator (John Fritz): Hello from Baltimore
Len: Hi John
Me: Warm but very rainy hello from São Paulo, Brazil
SuzGupta: Hello from cold but not yet snowy today Reno
luisa dall'acqua: Hello Len, hi all
Bryan Krusniak: Nice countdown timer. I've not seen that before in elluminate, now we just need music.
Len: warm and nice from lovely Guyana
SuzGupta: @dw -- how snowy is iti Chicago? where are you exactly?
SuzGupta: @Len -- sounds nice!
Len: very nice Suz
Me: @Ewout good to see you here
anchal: can't hear anything...is it my connection?
dwferris: I'm close to the lake on the north side about 6 inches so far
Len: no i don;t think
Asif: me neither
Steve Grim: I lost audio
Len: the audio went dead, oho
Moderator (John Fritz): I believe George is having Internet connection problems
Len: lost it here too
Len: no panic
Luis Torres Y: yes, me too, i los udio
Carline Romain: I have lost audio.
Len: yea man
Asif: yes john
Luis Torres Y: yes
Gillian: We can!
Len: yea John
Me: loud and clear
Ricardo E valenzuela Ruiz 2: yes
luisa dall'acqua: yes
Francisco Reis: Yes.
Len: George' bits are frozen over
Len: we need to byte em up
Maureen 1: You have an echo John
Asif: thought it was an emergent learning tacic
Steve Grim: snowing in Baltimore too?
SuzGupta: @dw -- my folks are in Wilmette; think I'll call to check up. stay warm!
Moderator: No snow in B'more but schools are closing an hour early. We're wimps
Steve Grim: I'm nort of you waiting for it to roll my way.
Steve Grim: north
anchal: lost sound again...
inescambiasso: can´t see anything on the screen
Cris 1: It rolled our way (Raleigh, NC) and the state is shut down.
luisa dall'acqua: no sound
Me to Ewout ter Haar: Oi Ewout...vc está participando do curso tb?
Cris 1: y
Hamed Agha: YEs
Brian Austin: yes
luisa dall'acqua: yes
daja57 1: Yes
Carline Romain: Audio has resumed.
Gillian: Yes I can
Wolfgang: Sound is fine
Mary McEwen: yes
Ricardo E valenzuela Ruiz 2: yes
Nelly Spanjersberg: yes
Luis Torres Y: yes John
SuzGupta: audio is fine, thx John!
luisa dall'acqua: ok
jeanberg: I hear
Carline Romain: okay, thank you
Cris 1: @Asif -- Good to see you here.
Sylvia Currie: We'll wait a couple minutes for George to come back
Karen: no sound
Asif: hey cris -- whatup
inescambiasso: @Len thanks. I´m in the group
Len: sending some tuesday afternoon sunshine and warmth for all...
Cris 1: @Asif -- wondered if you'd recognize me -- forgot to be Cris2B
inescambiasso: not clear
Moderator: I've done that
Richard Olsen: it is recording
Steve Grim: y
Vince Jansen: yes
Cris 1: y
George Siemens: hi all
Hamed Agha: Y
Bryan Krusniak: y
luisa dall'acqua: yes
Carline Romain: Y
Jim Peterson: y
Luis Torres Y: yes
Cris 1: Hi there
Hamed Agha: Nice to meet you John.
SuzGupta: lucky for the kids
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Nice to have a webcam to get a glimpse!
Moderator (eLearnspace): i'm here
Moderator (George Siemens):
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Practical. Yes!
Cris 1: I appreciate the "Language, Media, and Culture" connection that John brings
Moderator (George Siemens):
Len: hmm kool
Len: can we have the full paper on the course page
Adam Weisblatt: can it also be used for demonstrating the value or lack there of of a learning program?
Asif: good question Adam -- making me think
Cris 1: Perhaps the value of the learning opportunities /transactions and perchance transformations
Wolfgang: We are experimenting with Stage5 using language technologies
Asif: we're at stage 0: not having yet considered analytics
Moderator (John Fritz): http://www.educause.edu/ers0508 ECAR study
Carline Romain: What if you are at two institutions?
Mary McEwen: where we ARE or where we are researching (WANT to be)
luisa dall'acqua: we are testing stage 5
Steve Grim: It appears Stage 5 is dependent on Stage 2, but not necessarilt 3 or 4. Agree?
Len: Asif, we are also at stage ZERO
Gillian: I would suggst we could have both B and E!!! (no middle)
Len: most ppl are prob at stage 0
Asif: hey len -- our challenge is pushing this in our own institutions
Bodong C: have no idea about it, since it's more an institutional level stuff.
Carline Romain: B at the main school
Wolfgang: Stage 5 is not institutionalised
daja57 1: We're probably not a random sample; somewhat self-selected if we're on this course
Cris 1: @daja57 -- good point
Moderator (George Siemens): the end stages is where we can expect the greatest impact...
Moderator (George Siemens): it's nice to play around at a classroom/extraction level
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): People keel over at the extraction and reporting stage. No steam left to do anything with those reports!
Cris 1: that's my interest -- beginning at the classroom level -- playing would be fun
Moderator (George Siemens): fyi - Kimberly Arnold (from Purdue) will be presenting later in this course
Gillian: Very true, Sylvia
Wolfgang: Impact in end stages is limited at present as they depend very much on accuracy of analytics/predictions of behaviour analysis
Gillian: Wolfgang: and also speed?
Wolfgang: Indeed real time is still wishful thinking at present
Cris 1: Oh, dear, the gradebooks are terrible. Yep, I never use them.
Len: whya re they terrible?
Gillian: We're forced to use them - and they are still terrible!
Cris 1: There's not the ease of readability or feedback in Moodle.
Asif: @cris -- agreed
Carline Romain: I would love to use it at the one institution that has it, but many students cannot access the system (reasons vary from lack of computer access to resistance of computer/blackboard system use to systematic glitches.
Len: good thanks Gillian
Carline Romain: The other schools do not possess such a system-- at least one that is for higher education use.
Me to Leigh Blackall: @leigh this can only be done in LMS and closed silos, I suppose.
Richard Olsen: Good question, should be asked more
Len: a place to lump course material??? bb
Len: check MIT open courseware
Adam Weisblatt: Analytics is THE deliverable of an LMS so you need to use the analytics to SELL the LMS.
Moderator (George Siemens):
Moderator (George Siemens): students should be able to see everything the institution sees about their activities
SuzGupta: I thought learning was the key deliverable of a (an) LMS
Len: good point GS
Leigh Blackall: I can think of a few ways to do it outside. Wordpress for example, if an institution used that. But that just another LMS. Manually could be easy too...
Moderator (George Siemens): learning analytics should be student-facing, not only admin/teachers
Bodong C: democratize analytics
Adam Weisblatt: You don't learn from an LMS. It is just a tool to facilitate
Asif: back to Adam's question -- student analytics to evaluate institutions?
Leigh Blackall: Manually would solve the problem of this automatic model - judgement
Len: what 'analytics' can i use to measure how well my facebook groups are doing for students tutorials dev?
Cris 1: @Carline -- Google Docs is really helpful for communicating with students about grades in a 1 to 1 portfolio.
SuzGupta: true; you learn from the underlying course
Angela van Barneveld: You don't learning from learning analytics either. They are just another source of information.
Nancy Parker --Athabasca: Data mining rule... stay away from production systems
Me to Leigh Blackall: I do not like looking at this data on Moodle for instance
Luis Torres Y: is important the sensation of the context awareness,
Leigh Blackall: I don't like looking at Moodle full stop!
psychemedia: personal analytics cf. VRM - Doc Searls et al.
Me to Leigh Blackall:
Carline Romain: True, Cris 1. Thanks. There still is the issue of access with which to contend. Some students have BBS systems that are not compatible with Google (believe it or not) I still will keep trying.
Angela van Barneveld: Signals (@Purdue) sends messages to both student and instructor...awareness and then intervention as needed can occur after that.
Cris 1: @Carline -- good luck to you
Len: good students???
Me: the one who follow the rules
Carline Romain: T@Cris 1 Thank you.
Adam Weisblatt: students who make the effort to learn
Len: our dept philosophy is "no willing student left behind"
elaines 3: I have heard of their existence but it's only been rumours..
Gillian: Good differntiation in the speech there: interested in how good students use the system (BB) not the other way around.
Angela van Barneveld: So, the CMS/LMS track behaviours....yes. And that provides data for 'predicting' success.
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): As admin for an institutional LMS in a previous life we found students are a little obsessed with checking gradebook
Asif: as a student, I agree
dianne: Checking gradebook less useful than text cmts frm instructor in gradebook
Bodong C: that's so true!
Vince Jansen: @sylvie is that good or bad?
SuzGupta: seeing that at pre-college level too when it's available
luisa dall'acqua: basically this data should appear in the student e-portfolio
SuzGupta: perhaps it's the novelty of it right now? (not sure)
elaines 3: Students are always interested in grades I know I was.
Angela van Barneveld: Feedback on SIgnals program revealed students preferred personalized messages vs canned messages. Understandable.
SuzGupta: (epeat users)
Leigh Blackall: How often do the bloggers here check their own blog stats?
Len: grade addicts
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Vince good question! As dianne says comments from instructor more useful.
kae: so having this tool does ( and the above mentioned obsessiveness with grades) are we looking at gamification as a way to promote student success or student success behaviors.
SuzGupta: @Len -- yup
Angela van Barneveld: @Leigh - there are blog stats?
psychemedia: Check blog stats - once an hour?! heh heh
Me: @leigh sometimes, when I have nothing else to do
Wolfgang: John, do you do frequency tracking?
Moderator (eLearnspace): Any questions for John?
Adam Weisblatt: By using Blackboard do you mean taking eLEarning or using other features
Christy: How much do you use demographics/psychographics to analyse your populations?
Len: sometimes i feel all students are interested in are grades
Jenny: Do students want to see only their own stats or everyone else's as well?
daja57 1: Does telling the students the information distort their behaviour?
Carline Romain: How uniform is instructor usage of the systems across the board?
dianne: Gamification as done well does not = report cards/badges by themselves need to marry informatics with engagement (as in gd games)
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @leigh, when I do check personal blog stats but I don't do anything with the information.
Adam Weisblatt: Do you have a breakdown of usage of Bb features?
SuzGupta: @kae -- I'm interested in this too -- earning badges/leveling up etc in online learning environments. Leaderboards. Related to course content activities, not just grades
Gillian: One of the biggest problems with tracking duration could be the type of students and their locations (e.g. military away from base)
Len: we are working towards a GRADE in this course, are we
Cris 1: Once students understand Activity Reports in Moodle they learn to play the system.
Asif: @len -- so then facilitators obsessively checking for responses to their discussion posts another kind of addict?
kae: so do any of your instructors have requirement on number of login or check-ins? And do we see required check-ins for required durations?
Len: maybe those counting the responses and using them for stuff
Me: playing the system is the most creative activity stds engage in such environment
Cris 1: @Barbara
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Cris 1 and good for them!
Asif: i'm a good/bad instructor because I have x amount of responses from student
Bodong C: Does students being "good or bad" drive their use of Blackboard (and results in a difference in their final scores), or does using Blackboard make them to be "good or bad?"
Leigh Blackall: We need a browser plugin
kae: @SuzGupta and how we design for success and engagement not just pointification.
Len: what analytics are useful for me when using social software to support courses
Gillian: Bodong: I'd say that the fractured LMS is a real issue and some students just cannot use BB the whole time.
Richard Olsen: we've been developing a tool that tracks distributed content across diverse websites
Leigh Blackall: A browser plugin would make the perfect LMS for a distributed analytics model http://teachandlearnonline.blogspot.com/2005/03/perfect-lms.html
Asif: @richard -- cool & necessary next step
Moderator (George Siemens): tools like radian6 or Klout might be interesting to explore
Moderator (George Siemens): i.e. distributed analytics
Thieme Hennis: how could you use analytics for an (accredited) online reputation? how does this look in a few years time? how does this connect with your other online activities? will a standard emerge?
Cris 1: @ Sylvia -- it is good because in this case they are teachers learning to use Moodle and they have both the teacher and student perspectives
luisa dall'acqua: @ george logging and datamining products?
Richard Olsen: don't blog but check other websites every couple of weeks
Luis Torres Y: http://www.radian6.com/
SuzGupta: *wow* -- would love to learn more about what he's doing
Luis Torres Y: http://klout.com/
Moderator (George Siemens): please do
Len: "students take more responsibility for their own learning"
Len: love that cliche
Wolfgang: Difficult to distinguish between the benefits of technology vs the benefits from an inspired teacher. Technology cannot make a good teacher in my experience.
Moderator (George Siemens): LAK11
Richard Olsen: @leigh that is exactly what we're doing
Moderator (John Fritz): www.umbc.edu/blackboard/reports
Leigh Blackall: @Richard could you comment me a reference
Moderator (George Siemens): thx John!
Moderator (George Siemens):
kae: but that's just BB.
Asif: what queries do you use?
Richard Olsen: @leigh don't have any links as its still in private beta, could send you a ppt
Moderator (George Siemens): Tinto has provided a good foundation for tackling analytics
Leigh Blackall: @Richard anything would be nice. I'd love to share some ideas on the development too
Angela van Barneveld: I agree.
Moderator (George Siemens): particularly, the lack of academic and social integration as a factor for dropouts
Angela van Barneveld: Difference between being given an education and GETTING ONE.
Me: agree, George
Richard Olsen: @leigh would love too, currently we have only a very vague holding page at http://www.ideaslab.edu.au/design-lab/pulse/
Asif: 'do no harm'
Leigh Blackall: Exellent question! Phew!
Leigh Blackall: @Richard - thanks
elaines 3: Agreed students expectations of what they should be doing sometimes need to be challenged.
Claudia Guerrero: are ther information about professors or activities?
Leigh Blackall: I perhaps get too easily distracted by the ethical questions around this analytics topic
Moderator (George Siemens): we've found, with open courses, learner autonomy, self-efficacy, etc. are critical
Moderator (George Siemens): learners need to see value for what they are doing and why they are there
Irwin DeVries: Do we also have a responsibility to learn what works and doesn't and improve our courses accordingly
Len: i want to see the value here and now, sometimes hard GS
Asif: @irwin -- nice
Cris 1: I appreciate Dan Pink's DRIVE and the need for autonomy, mastery, and purpose to motivate
Len: the immediacy of what we want to learn or think we should
dianne: How others are doing doesn't tell me about my own learning issues though (?)-not a fan of normative grading
Asif: @irwin -- are the 'we' you describe students or instructors?
Irwin DeVries: Instructors
Asif: i'm thinking students -- improving courses as a result of analytics
Irwin DeVries: @ Asif - by getting their feedback into the course improvement cycle as well
Moderator (George Siemens): @Len - it is...but if we want to move from instructors pushing learners to learners being somewhat self-motivated, we need to explore it
Len: but you know what? at the beginning of many courses, we "tell" students what our objectives are
Thieme Hennis: @George perceived value is indeed important, but the task size as well: answering a question on Hunch is easier than following this whole course. therefore flexibility and self-organization is needed we need support for that
Cris 1: @Irwin -- that would be so helpful rather than waiting for a one-time end-of-course eval
Irwin DeVries: @ Christ - exactly
Thieme Hennis: for more Blackboard analysis, please consult PhD thesis Piet van der Zanden
Irwin DeVries: @Chris - sorry for the typo
Cris 1: @Irwin
Len: Thieme, can u please post the link to that thesis if u have?
Len: alot of links shared here, can we share them in the FB group please?
Thieme Hennis: http://www.surfspace.nl/nl/Redactieomgeving/Publicaties/Documents/TheFacilitatingUniversity.pdf
Cris 1: Does Blackboard own Elluminate or vice versa?
luisa dall'acqua: what about extended student e-portfolio functionality like in sakai?
Moderator (George Siemens): or tag them with LAK11 on diigo/delicious
Me: @Chris1 - it does
Thieme Hennis: okidoki
Len: thanks Thi...
Moderator (George Siemens): @Chris - BB owns elluminate
Cris 1: @Barbara and George -- thanks
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Irwin seems a course "meta" discussion should always be a requirement. I can't imagine teaching without a separate forum to talk about the course
Len: thats a great point Sylvia
Asif: @sylvie -- perhaps the 'meta' should be formalized?
Len: i will be doing more of that soon
dianne: Might be more interesting to assign grades to areas of individual competencies, e.g, make the pts assigned to each aspect of a rubric that leads to a grade visible.
Cris 1: @Sylvia -- would love to learn more. I have a "Live the Question" (Rilke-inspired) forum which helps.
Richard Olsen: can we have those links again?
Maureen: Excellent presentation
Len: @Sylvia - let us know more abotu your "meta" thingy
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Asif, yes maybe. Seems a "news" forum is always a default. Maybe a meta forum should be (in LMSs which is what most folks are using)
Len: good presentation John
Carline Romain: Thank you. Magnificent presentation.
Vince Jansen: thanks John very informative
elaines 3: Thanks John. Given me lots to think about.
luisa dall'acqua: thanks John
Maureen: Did you have any privacy issues to contend with?
Abelardo Pardo: Good talk John!
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Len, love that - meta thingy I'll make a note to blog about it!
Len: John, we've been playing around with FB groups to support teaching and learning...very much exploratory...any ideas as to how we can go about "measuring" the value of what we do
Len: @sylvia - please share your blog with us on the fb group
Me: I am relieved @JOhn
Asif: @sylvia -- we always ask students to 'reflect' on learning activities -- but rarely do we ask them to do so in terms of the effectiveness of the course itself
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Len noted
Adam Weisblatt: How would this translate to the corporate environment...the regulatory environment?
Gillian: This was really useful but I'm wondering about the differences that will be required in ethical interventions in standardised instruction institutions and those that allow professorial freedom. The managing of the two styles of reporting/intervention will have to be very different. Hmm - just mulling the problem here,,,
Cris 1: @Asif: especially pubically.
Asif: @cris -- privacy issues
Wolfgang: We need bring in more qualitative analytics, how good is what students do - not so much how often they do it or which tool they use, download numbers etc. Qualitative analytics can only go so far.
Cris 1: @Asif - held my breath and hoping you didn't see that
Me: cognitive and socio-cultural awareness, I'd say
dianne: Curves are notoriously dependent on numbers...danger of people making too much of poor data
Gillian: Agree: qualitative also important.
Simon Buckingham Shum 1: Thanks John
Wolfgang: Limits to quantitative analytics I meant.
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): @Asif, oh interesting. I also have (somewhere!) a self-assessment tool on collaborative processes that I've used. I'll dig it out.
Me: Everytime I see all the data I remind myself tha the map is not the territory
Carline Romain: @John If you encountered it, how were you able to bypass faculty resistance to use of the LMS? Given that without faculty use, there is no systemwide analysis that is readily available. In my experience, the students who were reticent to use the system cited that other faculty did not use it so theiir 'lives' were rendered uncomfortable, while the others wholly embraced the process and all that it entails.
dianne: Think a reading article made an important point...you really have to collect the info that's tied to the outcome you want to look at. Think the numbers of A's, B's, D's etc don't really cut it.
Wolfgang: So far looks like statistical analysis of logs is most of what institutions do.
Moderator (John Fritz): Here's the Tim Hardy (Economics) case study I mentioned: http://www.umbc.edu/blogs/oit-news/archives/2010/05/a_case_for_usin_1.html
Gillian: Lining up the collection of data, the outcomes and the wider world (employability, social capital, research...) needs thinking through
daja57 1: @Wolfgang agree. Educational data typically soft. Arguably more informative but harder to analyse.
Len: peeps on the FB group please help post the links on our group...if u can
Cris 1: So will Learning Analytics create more pressure from admins to use the university LMS? This could be bad news if you're using the open Web.
dianne: Thanks for a thought-provoking talk, John.
Len: Analytics for open systems
Asif: @cris -- excellent point
SuzGupta: John, thank you -- lots to think about here.
Cris 1: @Asif: thanks. working on my spelling.
Asif: analytics sez yer improvin'
Irwin DeVries: @ Asif Hunch predicted that
Len: Activity is also an indicator or quality?
Len: someone will interpret it John
Mary: Good point, Len.
Cris 1: Gotta love the comic relief here.
Asif: helps prevent dropout
Me: capture and control ...hmmm
Len: do i need to apply 'analytics' to the open web wher ei do some discourse
Cris 1: @Len: there much to be learned from George's MOOCs about that
Richard Olsen: i think as we move towards openness around our analytics we'll find technical solutions that address privacy issues eg. translucent databases - at the moment it is not a priority for those with the data
Thieme Hennis: This looks like a lot of questions but in fact it is one: how could you use analytics for an (accredited) online reputation? how does this connect with your other online activities? will a standard emerge? So: how will the learning activities and achievements and reputation you do online combine with the activities you do within a university or school? Do schools and universities HAVE TO move to more web-based, open environments -- thus have less control -- and not constrain students to THEIR learning environments?
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Interesting comment about building faculty community -- emerged through shared data
Wolfgang: Is this because innovative teachers are often good teachers?
Nancy Parker --Athabasca: So the data says good instructors are active and good students are active...
Moderator (John Fritz): @Wolfgan: Yes, I think so
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): So many excellent comments and questions from the past hour to build on!
Wolfgang: Or the other way round: good teachers are innovative.
Len: John good job
Irwin DeVries: Layer of discourse - insight between data and conclusions: essential - data-informed ok, but data driven...
Gillian: @Wolfgang - or flexible?
Wolfgang: Thanks a lot guys!
Len: my internet stayed true
Richard Olsen: thank you John, very informative
Asif: very nicely done -- muchas gracias
Matthieu Esteve: Thanks a lot!
Maureen: Copy of slides?
Mary: Thanks. When will this be posted, George?
Cris 1: Thanks, John, for getting us off to great start
Gillian: Thanks a lot!
Leigh Blackall: Thanks John and the crew organising
Bodong C: Thanks a lot!
daja57 1: Many thanks John and George
Thieme Hennis: thanks
Me: Thank you very much
Carline Romain: Excellent. Thank you.
kae: thank you very much!
Irwin DeVries: thanks
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): As soon as we leave the room
Christy: Mnay thnask - interested in more dialogue about activity vs productivity measures
Len: this chat log
Len: is good to share
Michael Rees: Many thanks John and George
Len: do we have em?
Len: GS do we save the chat logs too????
Moderator (George Siemens): http://www.learninganalytics.net/?page_id=71
Moderator (Sylvia Currie): Absolutely. Send 'em my way