Chat log for LAK11 Weekly Check In

Feb 11, 2011

 


00:17 - Stephen Downes 

I'm going to buy George a set of headphones he can use for these courses 


00:19 - ConnectIrmeli 

At last here. Been busy with startups IRL smile 


00:31 - Stephen Downes 

echo echo echo echo... 


01:10 - Gillian 

@George: DOn't worry.  Sound no worse here than it was with Stephen earlier (full of holes!) 


01:22 - George Siemens 

or not 


02:16 - Stephen Downes 

funny 


02:25 - Tanya Elias 

the wonderful world of academia! 


05:56 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Complete understanding of an individual is upholding stigmata. Can't escape e.g. to another institution when you're unhappy with your teacher or boss. Your data will be there before you. 


06:10 - Stephen Downes 

agreed 


06:10 - George Siemens 

@Wolfgang - exactly! 


06:24 - Stephen Downes 

agreed with Dave (to be clear) 


06:25 - Gillian 

Is there a privacy issue here that is akin to FB concerns?  Why should students trust edu sites more than FB? 


06:44 - dave cormier 

right 


06:48 - dave cormier 

there isn't really a who 


06:50 - dave cormier 

yet. 


07:03 - Chris - Denver, Co 

LMS's are really first time that individual actions in a class are tracked on a constant basis. 


07:18 - Gillian 

@Dave: OK... ? 


08:01 - dave cormier 

@Gillian they shouldn't no. 


08:14 - dave cormier 

@gillian though they currently trust universities... 


08:23 - Gillian 

@Chris-Denver: First time in LMS is not necessarily first time in work/academic learning.... 


08:25 - Chris - Denver, Co 

But there is a temptation to implement Contiuous improvement to any system that can be measured. Problem is that this is typically quantitatively focused and misses qualitative variables. 


09:16 - George Siemens 

with Bonnie? 


09:22 - George Siemens 

cause then I'll read it 


09:26 - George Siemens 

she's a good writer 


09:28 - George Siemens 

and nice 


09:40 - George Siemens 

exactly! 


09:43 - George Siemens 

good point Dave 


09:55 - Tanya Elias 

@ chris had that conversation yesterday.  Found myself explaining that qualitative data is no more subjective than quantitative 


10:53 - George Siemens 

admit it dave, it is a value judgement 


10:57 - Chris - Denver, Co 

lol 


11:03 - Gillian 

Is there another issue here when talking about 'our students'?  When talking about under-18s, there may be a point.  Adults are perhaps peers with different foci? 


11:05 - Stephen Downes 

I'll make it a value judgement 


11:21 - Tanya Elias 

Are you saying we don't care? sad 


11:46 - dave cormier 

@Tanya who doesn't care? 


11:56 - dave cormier 

transparency is awesome. 


12:01 - Tanya Elias 

people working in corporate world 


12:38 - dave cormier 

@tanya you can care. but the corporate agenda, by legal contract, forces a focus on profit sharing to shareholders. 


12:40 - Wolfgang (NL) 

@George that is absolutely correct. 


12:45 - dave cormier 

@tanya it's difficult to get around that. 


13:26 - Wolfgang (NL) 

That's where it becomes a new corset to individual learning. 


14:17 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Just another form of institutional/governmental assessment 


14:43 - dave cormier 

tanya? 


14:48 - Tanya Elias 

yes? 


14:49 - dave cormier 

did you want to follow up that point? 


14:59 - Gillian 

@tanya  If you were replying to my comment: not sure of the problem.  I'm not 'commercial' not 'academic' .  Adults are adults and if engaged in lifelong learnig they shift in and out of the two realms. 


15:16 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Dashboard example from Linda Baer's session: http://www.mnscu.edu/board/accountability/index.html 


15:36 - dave cormier 

I'm not sure i trust my position now that george has agreed with it 


15:45 - ljp 1 

students and standards http://clubweb.interbaun.com/~l-pphillips/edarticles/studstand.htm 


15:45 - Chris - Denver, Co 

lol 


16:17 - George Siemens 

Knewton 


16:29 - George Siemens 

150,000 


16:39 - ljp 1 

Students and Standards my contribution to the literature -- what schools do to meet achievement objectives. 


16:57 - George Siemens 

http://www.blackboard.com/Platforms/Analytics/Overview.aspx 


17:31 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Almost all the colleges I talk to are looking for analytics that focus on Student Success and Retention. It hopes of generating a predictive model and an ealry alert system. 


17:44 - Chris - Denver, Co 

*In* 


18:22 - Gillian 

@Chhris - precisely - and worryingly. Compliance, not edu and research. 


18:33 - Tanya Elias 

being data-driven is not neccessarily bad, just different 


18:52 - Francisco Reis 

Agree! 


18:52 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Especially with all the new Dept of Education focus on justifying your budget. 


19:01 - George Siemens 

wow, I spoke many words 


19:08 - Gillian 

@Tanya - agree on difference.  Just need the translation mechanism!! smile 


19:13 - Stephen Downes 

not sure I agree 


19:23 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Worry that we'll start seeing an attempt to apply NCLB to Higher Ed. sad 


19:35 - George Siemens 

analytics are the first enterprise-level tool for education - more substantial than the impact of LMS 


19:40 - Stephen Downes 

He said analytics will have a bigger inpact on education than ERP and LMS 


19:41 - Gillian 

@Chris NCLB??? 


19:45 - Tanya Elias 

but so does traditional currciculum development 


19:48 - Chris - Denver, Co 

No Child Left Behind 


19:57 - George Siemens 

@Stephen - sorry - analytics will be more like an ERP than an LMS 


20:01 - Gillian 

@Chris Ahh!! smile 


20:08 - Stephen Downes 

ok 


20:15 - Stephen Downes 

ERP = ? 


20:51 - Stephen Downes 

It _will_ be used for naferious purposes 


20:52 - Finn 

enterprise resource planning 


21:10 - George Siemens 

@stephen - I'm thinking of higher ed companies - such as sunGard 


21:39 - Gillian 

@Chris - As long as HE sticks to Outcomes, not Obejectives, there's hope! 


21:41 - George Siemens 

i.e. enterprise level planning systems 


22:04 - Chris - Denver, Co 

ERP typically is an aggregation of HR, scheduling/ project management, process improvement, and fiscal applications into one program. 


22:12 - dave cormier 

it might be... it might also lead to the firing of all the curriculum developers 


22:18 - Chris - Denver, Co 

lol 


22:32 - Stephen Downes 

I wonder if analytics does to education what SEO has already done to media... 


22:35 - Stephen Downes 

Eg. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/business/media/11search.html?src=busln 


22:44 - Gillian 

@chris @Dave  LoL  !! 


22:45 - dave cormier 

@stephen that's a nice example 


23:00 - dave cormier 

the change hasn't been all bad... but it sure has been profound 


23:23 - Stephen Downes 

SEO "can turn into a “eroin drip”or publishers: “hey had this really good content at the beginning, but they realize the more S.E.O. they do, the more money they make, and the pressure really pushes down the quality on their sites.” 


23:24 - kae 1 

Okay so what should educators start doing concerning analytics? 


23:32 - ljp 1 

the problem is using the analytics for assessment purposes.  i.e. you need to be in the top quartile of posters to pass forces posts. 


23:43 - Stephen Downes 

I've seen this already in edublogging 


23:48 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Worry that we'll start seeing Colleges desparate for founding starting to sell student data to internet marketers. Can just see banner ads in my LMS.. /cringe smile 


23:48 - dave cormier 

When i was arguing with the 'connectivism hater' in wikipedia the other day he said "when i search for connectivism, all i find is @downes blog posts..." 


24:36 - Gillian 

@ljp1 Think you have a point there.  Much more useful to start at the base 


24:37 - Wolfgang (NL) 

I guess the analytics companies like BB need to justify a substantial investment by the HE institutions. 


25:06 - Chris - Denver, Co 

yes, a lot of administrators are looking at how analytics can be used to assist in managing their adjuncts (typically 60% to 75% of faculty). 


26:06 - Chris - Denver, Co 

yes, or system level 


26:17 - George Siemens 

exactly Dave 


26:19 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Most people involved is IT not faculty 


26:26 - Stephen Downes 

'golfcourseware' 


26:30 - Chris - Denver, Co 

lol 


26:30 - kae 1 

@ Dave - it goes to the RFP committee which is made up of adminstrators 


26:31 - George Siemens 

that's the problem - i.e. who is selling and who in higher ed is buying 


26:43 - George Siemens 

that gives us a real sense of where analytics are... 


26:56 - Gillian 

@Chris-Denver  Managing adjuncts is one thing.  Managing to enable social capital is somewhat different.  Guess you agree  ? 


26:57 - Francisco Reis 

IT may also be faculty! In the future that will increase, I think. 


27:08 - Chris - Denver, Co 

In my experience, the administrators buy and faculty are forced to adapt. 


27:16 - kae 1 

IT gets to take look at it months before any quick tour of LMS is given to educators. 


27:19 - Chris - Denver, Co 

as are students (forced to adapt) 


27:27 - George Siemens 

or simply adopting Knewton 


27:35 - George Siemens 

disaster capitalism anyone? 


27:45 - Stephen Downes 

That's ok, I'll make the negative claim about senior management 


27:52 - Gillian 

@Chris - Denver Yes - you ahve a real point that LMSs descend from on high on staff and students 


28:58 - kae 1 

so same pattern for analytics unless educators take it upon themself to get involved 


28:58 - Chris - Denver, Co 

@Gillian I am very interested in seeing what analytics can do to help students stay engaged and connected to their classmates. So build social aspects / community is sorely needed set of skills. smile 


29:52 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Can Analytics help Business of Education align with Purpose of Education smile 


29:54 - Gillian 

@Chris - Denver.  Agree.  Am working empirically - no stats anywhere!  Just working towards it... 


30:32 - Chris - Denver, Co 

I don't find them scary, but then I do a lot of work with businesses and internet marketing, SEO, and Analytics. 


30:33 - kae 1 

I agree administrators think that they can help. 


31:16 - Chris - Denver, Co 

I'm seeing a lot of focus on Data driven decision making. I worry that everyone will focus on the data trends and not look for innovation. 


31:25 - Stephen Downes 

Why is it OK for institutions to collect all this personal data, to the point even of keylogging, while it is not OK for Facebook to do it? 


31:46 - Wolfgang (NL) 

We're talking about corporate systems only here, but as more teaching is outsourced to Web 2.0 tools these only capture part of the learning. 


31:47 - Chris - Denver, Co 

@Stephen because students have not thought about this. 


32:02 - Stephen Downes 

It's not students' jobs to think about this 


32:14 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Most students I work with have no clue that I can see when they log on. When I have to bring it up, they get freaked! 


32:20 - dave cormier 

@stephen i'm very trustworthy! i have a business card! trust me. 


32:24 - Chris - Denver, Co 

lol 


32:29 - Stephen Downes 

I have no doubt they get freaked 


32:36 - Gillian 

@Stepen No idea but it 'should' be a big issue.  What's to stop a uni selling mu burger-buying rate to my insurance company?  (Nightmare but incidental to here!) 


32:56 - Richard Olsen 

@downes we go through their proxy servers, ISPs collect information about us 


33:22 - Stephen Downes 

I know 


33:54 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Colleges already market their student data. Think sports sponsors smile 


34:29 - Stephen Downes 

I'm sure I could market the data from my website to LMS companies 


34:34 - Tanya Elias 

unfocused. that is the the issue 


34:48 - Chris - Denver, Co 

At our college, they worked with a credit card company to develop a college debit card that has student financial deposits put onto it. They did this to save money by not cutting checks. 


35:00 - Wolfgang (NL) 

biggest danger is where else data goes, ad companies, etc. 


35:02 - Gillian 

@stephen ANd the downside would be??? 


35:41 - Chris - Denver, Co 

The benefit is that analytics may give us more information regarding customizing instruction based on student needs and performance. 


35:43 - Mary McEwen 

do you mean the "Downes-side" smile 


35:47 - Stephen Downes 

the downside, I think, is that I would then begin tailoring my content to improve the data from the website 


35:58 - dave cormier 

@mary nice smile 


36:10 - Gillian 

@Mary - Yes, I smiled smile 


36:26 - Gillian 

@Stephen Yes - and trust. 


36:53 - Stephen Downes 

Right 


37:22 - dave cormier 

oh. and i think analytics can be really interesting. 


37:25 - dave cormier 

and want to use it 


38:06 - Stephen Downes 

I'm even nervous about looking up and/or listing the most read posts on my website 


38:11 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Social mapping of LMS interaction would really help instructors easily identify students that falling through the cracks. 


38:17 - Stephen Downes 

In a certain sense, I don't *want* to know what was popular 


38:18 - dave cormier 

have to go now... sad this is a bad time... have a great weekend everyone 


38:22 - kae 1 

Then maybe it's time to have the discussion - find out what analytics are available at your school, show analytics in the dept and faculty meetings and as suggested by Mary bring analytics into the classroom and show students how to use it. 


38:25 - dave cormier 

must get kids 


38:32 - Stephen Downes 

Because then I'll start writing for popularity, rather than content 


38:48 - dave cormier 

@downes you've always been a diva (parting shot!) 


38:55 - Stephen Downes 

yeah that's me 


38:57 - Stephen Downes 

smile 


39:12 - George Siemens 

Microsoft Azure 


39:18 - George Siemens 

InfoChimps 


40:59 - Stephen Downes 

I wonder whether we'll get 'analytics hacks' - where people produce analytic trails in order to improve responses from companies, but are actually misrepresentative... 


41:21 - Wolfgang (NL) 

@stephen great idea 


41:28 - Chris - Denver, Co 

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsazure/windowsazure/ 


41:30 - Gillian 

@downes Is that predictive? 


41:33 - Ken Powell 

@stephen You can bet on it... 


41:47 - Stephen Downes 

Well I imagine it already exists to some extent today 


41:50 - Chris - Denver, Co 

http://infochimps.com/ 


42:20 - Stephen Downes 

People will pay to fix a dent in their car with cash rather than have it show up in the system and get reported to the insurance company 


42:36 - Mary McEwen 

@Stephen -- but we can also use that (fake data) to our advantage by using data simulations of learning analytics to train (analysts) and test (curriculum, design) 


43:03 - Wolfgang (NL) 

faking data with twitter bots seemingly works 


43:11 - Stephen Downes 

In the U.S., where you have to pay money for health insurance, I can imagine people buying cigarettes offline, and offering to purchase exercise gear for their neighbours, in exchange for cash 


43:35 - Stephen Downes 

People tailor their Facebook personas 


43:46 - Mary McEwen 

@Stephen -- whole new niche markets. 


44:09 - Gillian 

@Mary  Even more problematic for learning design is the time lag?  Instruction programs need to eb fairly stable to make it all work??? 


44:31 - Stephen Downes 

We had some mandatory training recently, I simply paged through the courses so they'd show up (not quickly, I'd hit a page, do something else, etc) & I'd get credit for having 'taken' the course 


45:17 - kae 1 

I think this info may be fed to academic advisors and student retention specialists who then contact. 


45:22 - Stephen Downes 

People buy 'vanity subscriptions' to magazines they never read - 'Fortune' and 'the Economist' probably couldn't exist without them 


45:28 - Ken Powell 

@stephen Great idea for a cottage industry; analytics data creation.  smile 


45:28 - Mary McEwen 

@Gillian --depends, how about A/B testing? 


45:40 - Gillian 

@stephen  Yhat's a huge improvement - I used to put a child/weight on the mouse while I coooked supper just to make sure the system recognised next stage in course... 


45:41 - kae 1 

right now many early alert system rely on faculty reporting 


46:25 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Also worried about Department of Education selecting analytics to measure education. Issue of what are the "correct" analytics v. analytics for analytics sake. 


46:28 - Stephen Downes 

Meanwhile I use my own analytics to subvert the system... 


46:50 - Therese Weel 

The fact that hour online activities ca be monitored is a given - how is that information used and interpreted? 


47:02 - Stephen Downes 

When I am asked for a postal code, for example, I invent postal codes, to break the tracking, but also to track where the spam messages come from 


47:06 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Educational Optimization smile 


47:16 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Saying something positive: analytics have great potential for self reflection. 


47:22 - Mary McEwen 

I would think that we could develop models to detect "fake data" as well. 


47:41 - kae 1 

spending time on the students who are D, F and W not on getting the C students to become B and A students. 


47:43 - Gillian 

@Stephen - Am not sure where I live in Albany ;) 


47:56 - George Siemens 

smile 


48:13 - Stephen Downes 

Oh I remember doing those calls when I was a tutor for Athabasca - if I didn't get an assignment in the mail I was supposed to call - it hardly ever worked 


48:34 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Most issues will occure when we get to benchmarking performance based on analytics. 


49:30 - kae 1 

Actually last week made those calls 2 weeks ago based on "no-show" and think you need advisors or student services people. 


49:36 - Sandra 

Maybe it's the learning style of the tutor - who wouldn't appreciate such a call themselves 


49:43 - Chris - Denver, Co 

Education and businesses cannot help but peg themselves to industry averages on performance measures. 


50:02 - Ken Powell 

Analytics is yet another tool; providing the tool doesn't ensure it will be used well or wisely. Just like desktop publishing... 


50:26 - Tanya Elias 

@Ken exactly 


51:13 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Interesting how the discussion slipped into concerns rather than into benefits. I wonder whether ad companies etc using analytics also have these sort of concerns and discussions? 


51:43 - Therese Weel 

I'd like analytics that suggest what question to ask next. 


51:44 - Chris - Denver, Co 

I don't think analytics will be on most educators or students minds, until administrators start tying analytics into performance measures like pay or funding. 


52:14 - Stephen Downes 

agreed 


52:15 - Chris - Denver, Co 

lol that is when the "Egyptian" style uprisings will occur. smile 


52:19 - Gillian 

@George I like the distinction bewteen the two factors: personal and LMS/admin.  Biggest issue for me is that people find ever more ways to be individual and that really messes up LMSs.... 


52:44 - Stephen Downes 

YAY! No homework... 


52:52 - Wolfgang (NL) 

smile 


52:59 - George Siemens 

http://learninganalytics.net/syllabus.html#Week_6 


53:12 - Gillian 

Great - time to catch up! 


53:23 - Chris - Denver, Co 

lol what could be better, chocolate, flowers, wine and analytics. smile 


54:11 - Gillian 

@Chris_Denver - Select three from four??? 


54:48 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Looking forward! 


54:53 - Francisco Reis 

Bye! 


54:54 - Chris - Denver, Co 

@Gillian. Select all and then you and significant other can discuss metrics and benchmarking. smile 


54:59 - Gillian 

Thank you all! 


55:01 - Stephen Downes 

bye George & Tanya 


55:06 - Wolfgang (NL) 

Cheers