Chat log for LAK11 Weekly Check In
Feb 11, 2011
00:17 - Stephen Downes
I'm going to buy George a set of headphones he can use for these courses
00:19 - ConnectIrmeli
At last here. Been busy with startups IRL
00:31 - Stephen Downes
echo echo echo echo...
01:10 - Gillian
@George: DOn't worry. Sound no worse here than it was with Stephen earlier (full of holes!)
01:22 - George Siemens
02:16 - Stephen Downes
02:25 - Tanya Elias
the wonderful world of academia!
05:56 - Wolfgang (NL)
Complete understanding of an individual is upholding stigmata. Can't escape e.g. to another institution when you're unhappy with your teacher or boss. Your data will be there before you.
06:10 - Stephen Downes
06:10 - George Siemens
@Wolfgang - exactly!
06:24 - Stephen Downes
agreed with Dave (to be clear)
06:25 - Gillian
Is there a privacy issue here that is akin to FB concerns? Why should students trust edu sites more than FB?
06:44 - dave cormier
06:48 - dave cormier
there isn't really a who
06:50 - dave cormier
07:03 - Chris - Denver, Co
LMS's are really first time that individual actions in a class are tracked on a constant basis.
07:18 - Gillian
@Dave: OK... ?
08:01 - dave cormier
@Gillian they shouldn't no.
08:14 - dave cormier
@gillian though they currently trust universities...
08:23 - Gillian
@Chris-Denver: First time in LMS is not necessarily first time in work/academic learning....
08:25 - Chris - Denver, Co
But there is a temptation to implement Contiuous improvement to any system that can be measured. Problem is that this is typically quantitatively focused and misses qualitative variables.
09:16 - George Siemens
09:22 - George Siemens
cause then I'll read it
09:26 - George Siemens
she's a good writer
09:28 - George Siemens
09:40 - George Siemens
09:43 - George Siemens
good point Dave
09:55 - Tanya Elias
@ chris had that conversation yesterday. Found myself explaining that qualitative data is no more subjective than quantitative
10:53 - George Siemens
admit it dave, it is a value judgement
10:57 - Chris - Denver, Co
11:03 - Gillian
Is there another issue here when talking about 'our students'? When talking about under-18s, there may be a point. Adults are perhaps peers with different foci?
11:05 - Stephen Downes
I'll make it a value judgement
11:21 - Tanya Elias
Are you saying we don't care?
11:46 - dave cormier
@Tanya who doesn't care?
11:56 - dave cormier
transparency is awesome.
12:01 - Tanya Elias
people working in corporate world
12:38 - dave cormier
@tanya you can care. but the corporate agenda, by legal contract, forces a focus on profit sharing to shareholders.
12:40 - Wolfgang (NL)
@George that is absolutely correct.
12:45 - dave cormier
@tanya it's difficult to get around that.
13:26 - Wolfgang (NL)
That's where it becomes a new corset to individual learning.
14:17 - Wolfgang (NL)
Just another form of institutional/governmental assessment
14:43 - dave cormier
14:48 - Tanya Elias
14:49 - dave cormier
did you want to follow up that point?
14:59 - Gillian
@tanya If you were replying to my comment: not sure of the problem. I'm not 'commercial' not 'academic' . Adults are adults and if engaged in lifelong learnig they shift in and out of the two realms.
15:16 - Chris - Denver, Co
Dashboard example from Linda Baer's session: http://www.mnscu.edu/board/accountability/index.html
15:36 - dave cormier
I'm not sure i trust my position now that george has agreed with it
15:45 - ljp 1
students and standards http://clubweb.interbaun.com/~l-pphillips/edarticles/studstand.htm
15:45 - Chris - Denver, Co
16:17 - George Siemens
16:29 - George Siemens
16:39 - ljp 1
Students and Standards my contribution to the literature -- what schools do to meet achievement objectives.
16:57 - George Siemens
17:31 - Chris - Denver, Co
Almost all the colleges I talk to are looking for analytics that focus on Student Success and Retention. It hopes of generating a predictive model and an ealry alert system.
17:44 - Chris - Denver, Co
18:22 - Gillian
@Chhris - precisely - and worryingly. Compliance, not edu and research.
18:33 - Tanya Elias
being data-driven is not neccessarily bad, just different
18:52 - Francisco Reis
18:52 - Chris - Denver, Co
Especially with all the new Dept of Education focus on justifying your budget.
19:01 - George Siemens
wow, I spoke many words
19:08 - Gillian
@Tanya - agree on difference. Just need the translation mechanism!!
19:13 - Stephen Downes
not sure I agree
19:23 - Chris - Denver, Co
Worry that we'll start seeing an attempt to apply NCLB to Higher Ed.
19:35 - George Siemens
analytics are the first enterprise-level tool for education - more substantial than the impact of LMS
19:40 - Stephen Downes
He said analytics will have a bigger inpact on education than ERP and LMS
19:41 - Gillian
19:45 - Tanya Elias
but so does traditional currciculum development
19:48 - Chris - Denver, Co
No Child Left Behind
19:57 - George Siemens
@Stephen - sorry - analytics will be more like an ERP than an LMS
20:01 - Gillian
20:08 - Stephen Downes
20:15 - Stephen Downes
ERP = ?
20:51 - Stephen Downes
It _will_ be used for naferious purposes
20:52 - Finn
enterprise resource planning
21:10 - George Siemens
@stephen - I'm thinking of higher ed companies - such as sunGard
21:39 - Gillian
@Chris - As long as HE sticks to Outcomes, not Obejectives, there's hope!
21:41 - George Siemens
i.e. enterprise level planning systems
22:04 - Chris - Denver, Co
ERP typically is an aggregation of HR, scheduling/ project management, process improvement, and fiscal applications into one program.
22:12 - dave cormier
it might be... it might also lead to the firing of all the curriculum developers
22:18 - Chris - Denver, Co
22:32 - Stephen Downes
I wonder if analytics does to education what SEO has already done to media...
22:35 - Stephen Downes
22:44 - Gillian
@chris @Dave LoL !!
22:45 - dave cormier
@stephen that's a nice example
23:00 - dave cormier
the change hasn't been all bad... but it sure has been profound
23:23 - Stephen Downes
SEO "can turn into a “eroin drip”or publishers: “hey had this really good content at the beginning, but they realize the more S.E.O. they do, the more money they make, and the pressure really pushes down the quality on their sites.”
23:24 - kae 1
Okay so what should educators start doing concerning analytics?
23:32 - ljp 1
the problem is using the analytics for assessment purposes. i.e. you need to be in the top quartile of posters to pass forces posts.
23:43 - Stephen Downes
I've seen this already in edublogging
23:48 - Chris - Denver, Co
Worry that we'll start seeing Colleges desparate for founding starting to sell student data to internet marketers. Can just see banner ads in my LMS.. /cringe
23:48 - dave cormier
When i was arguing with the 'connectivism hater' in wikipedia the other day he said "when i search for connectivism, all i find is @downes blog posts..."
24:36 - Gillian
@ljp1 Think you have a point there. Much more useful to start at the base
24:37 - Wolfgang (NL)
I guess the analytics companies like BB need to justify a substantial investment by the HE institutions.
25:06 - Chris - Denver, Co
yes, a lot of administrators are looking at how analytics can be used to assist in managing their adjuncts (typically 60% to 75% of faculty).
26:06 - Chris - Denver, Co
yes, or system level
26:17 - George Siemens
26:19 - Chris - Denver, Co
Most people involved is IT not faculty
26:26 - Stephen Downes
26:30 - Chris - Denver, Co
26:30 - kae 1
@ Dave - it goes to the RFP committee which is made up of adminstrators
26:31 - George Siemens
that's the problem - i.e. who is selling and who in higher ed is buying
26:43 - George Siemens
that gives us a real sense of where analytics are...
26:56 - Gillian
@Chris-Denver Managing adjuncts is one thing. Managing to enable social capital is somewhat different. Guess you agree ?
26:57 - Francisco Reis
IT may also be faculty! In the future that will increase, I think.
27:08 - Chris - Denver, Co
In my experience, the administrators buy and faculty are forced to adapt.
27:16 - kae 1
IT gets to take look at it months before any quick tour of LMS is given to educators.
27:19 - Chris - Denver, Co
as are students (forced to adapt)
27:27 - George Siemens
or simply adopting Knewton
27:35 - George Siemens
disaster capitalism anyone?
27:45 - Stephen Downes
That's ok, I'll make the negative claim about senior management
27:52 - Gillian
@Chris - Denver Yes - you ahve a real point that LMSs descend from on high on staff and students
28:58 - kae 1
so same pattern for analytics unless educators take it upon themself to get involved
28:58 - Chris - Denver, Co
@Gillian I am very interested in seeing what analytics can do to help students stay engaged and connected to their classmates. So build social aspects / community is sorely needed set of skills.
29:52 - Chris - Denver, Co
Can Analytics help Business of Education align with Purpose of Education
29:54 - Gillian
@Chris - Denver. Agree. Am working empirically - no stats anywhere! Just working towards it...
30:32 - Chris - Denver, Co
I don't find them scary, but then I do a lot of work with businesses and internet marketing, SEO, and Analytics.
30:33 - kae 1
I agree administrators think that they can help.
31:16 - Chris - Denver, Co
I'm seeing a lot of focus on Data driven decision making. I worry that everyone will focus on the data trends and not look for innovation.
31:25 - Stephen Downes
Why is it OK for institutions to collect all this personal data, to the point even of keylogging, while it is not OK for Facebook to do it?
31:46 - Wolfgang (NL)
We're talking about corporate systems only here, but as more teaching is outsourced to Web 2.0 tools these only capture part of the learning.
31:47 - Chris - Denver, Co
@Stephen because students have not thought about this.
32:02 - Stephen Downes
It's not students' jobs to think about this
32:14 - Chris - Denver, Co
Most students I work with have no clue that I can see when they log on. When I have to bring it up, they get freaked!
32:20 - dave cormier
@stephen i'm very trustworthy! i have a business card! trust me.
32:24 - Chris - Denver, Co
32:29 - Stephen Downes
I have no doubt they get freaked
32:36 - Gillian
@Stepen No idea but it 'should' be a big issue. What's to stop a uni selling mu burger-buying rate to my insurance company? (Nightmare but incidental to here!)
32:56 - Richard Olsen
@downes we go through their proxy servers, ISPs collect information about us
33:22 - Stephen Downes
33:54 - Chris - Denver, Co
Colleges already market their student data. Think sports sponsors
34:29 - Stephen Downes
I'm sure I could market the data from my website to LMS companies
34:34 - Tanya Elias
unfocused. that is the the issue
34:48 - Chris - Denver, Co
At our college, they worked with a credit card company to develop a college debit card that has student financial deposits put onto it. They did this to save money by not cutting checks.
35:00 - Wolfgang (NL)
biggest danger is where else data goes, ad companies, etc.
35:02 - Gillian
@stephen ANd the downside would be???
35:41 - Chris - Denver, Co
The benefit is that analytics may give us more information regarding customizing instruction based on student needs and performance.
35:43 - Mary McEwen
do you mean the "Downes-side"
35:47 - Stephen Downes
the downside, I think, is that I would then begin tailoring my content to improve the data from the website
35:58 - dave cormier
36:10 - Gillian
@Mary - Yes, I smiled
36:26 - Gillian
@Stephen Yes - and trust.
36:53 - Stephen Downes
37:22 - dave cormier
oh. and i think analytics can be really interesting.
37:25 - dave cormier
and want to use it
38:06 - Stephen Downes
I'm even nervous about looking up and/or listing the most read posts on my website
38:11 - Chris - Denver, Co
Social mapping of LMS interaction would really help instructors easily identify students that falling through the cracks.
38:17 - Stephen Downes
In a certain sense, I don't *want* to know what was popular
38:18 - dave cormier
have to go now... this is a bad time... have a great weekend everyone
38:22 - kae 1
Then maybe it's time to have the discussion - find out what analytics are available at your school, show analytics in the dept and faculty meetings and as suggested by Mary bring analytics into the classroom and show students how to use it.
38:25 - dave cormier
must get kids
38:32 - Stephen Downes
Because then I'll start writing for popularity, rather than content
38:48 - dave cormier
@downes you've always been a diva (parting shot!)
38:55 - Stephen Downes
yeah that's me
38:57 - Stephen Downes
39:12 - George Siemens
39:18 - George Siemens
40:59 - Stephen Downes
I wonder whether we'll get 'analytics hacks' - where people produce analytic trails in order to improve responses from companies, but are actually misrepresentative...
41:21 - Wolfgang (NL)
@stephen great idea
41:28 - Chris - Denver, Co
41:30 - Gillian
@downes Is that predictive?
41:33 - Ken Powell
@stephen You can bet on it...
41:47 - Stephen Downes
Well I imagine it already exists to some extent today
41:50 - Chris - Denver, Co
42:20 - Stephen Downes
People will pay to fix a dent in their car with cash rather than have it show up in the system and get reported to the insurance company
42:36 - Mary McEwen
@Stephen -- but we can also use that (fake data) to our advantage by using data simulations of learning analytics to train (analysts) and test (curriculum, design)
43:03 - Wolfgang (NL)
faking data with twitter bots seemingly works
43:11 - Stephen Downes
In the U.S., where you have to pay money for health insurance, I can imagine people buying cigarettes offline, and offering to purchase exercise gear for their neighbours, in exchange for cash
43:35 - Stephen Downes
People tailor their Facebook personas
43:46 - Mary McEwen
@Stephen -- whole new niche markets.
44:09 - Gillian
@Mary Even more problematic for learning design is the time lag? Instruction programs need to eb fairly stable to make it all work???
44:31 - Stephen Downes
We had some mandatory training recently, I simply paged through the courses so they'd show up (not quickly, I'd hit a page, do something else, etc) & I'd get credit for having 'taken' the course
45:17 - kae 1
I think this info may be fed to academic advisors and student retention specialists who then contact.
45:22 - Stephen Downes
People buy 'vanity subscriptions' to magazines they never read - 'Fortune' and 'the Economist' probably couldn't exist without them
45:28 - Ken Powell
@stephen Great idea for a cottage industry; analytics data creation.
45:28 - Mary McEwen
@Gillian --depends, how about A/B testing?
45:40 - Gillian
@stephen Yhat's a huge improvement - I used to put a child/weight on the mouse while I coooked supper just to make sure the system recognised next stage in course...
45:41 - kae 1
right now many early alert system rely on faculty reporting
46:25 - Chris - Denver, Co
Also worried about Department of Education selecting analytics to measure education. Issue of what are the "correct" analytics v. analytics for analytics sake.
46:28 - Stephen Downes
Meanwhile I use my own analytics to subvert the system...
46:50 - Therese Weel
The fact that hour online activities ca be monitored is a given - how is that information used and interpreted?
47:02 - Stephen Downes
When I am asked for a postal code, for example, I invent postal codes, to break the tracking, but also to track where the spam messages come from
47:06 - Chris - Denver, Co
47:16 - Wolfgang (NL)
Saying something positive: analytics have great potential for self reflection.
47:22 - Mary McEwen
I would think that we could develop models to detect "fake data" as well.
47:41 - kae 1
spending time on the students who are D, F and W not on getting the C students to become B and A students.
47:43 - Gillian
@Stephen - Am not sure where I live in Albany ;)
47:56 - George Siemens
48:13 - Stephen Downes
Oh I remember doing those calls when I was a tutor for Athabasca - if I didn't get an assignment in the mail I was supposed to call - it hardly ever worked
48:34 - Chris - Denver, Co
Most issues will occure when we get to benchmarking performance based on analytics.
49:30 - kae 1
Actually last week made those calls 2 weeks ago based on "no-show" and think you need advisors or student services people.
49:36 - Sandra
Maybe it's the learning style of the tutor - who wouldn't appreciate such a call themselves
49:43 - Chris - Denver, Co
Education and businesses cannot help but peg themselves to industry averages on performance measures.
50:02 - Ken Powell
Analytics is yet another tool; providing the tool doesn't ensure it will be used well or wisely. Just like desktop publishing...
50:26 - Tanya Elias
51:13 - Wolfgang (NL)
Interesting how the discussion slipped into concerns rather than into benefits. I wonder whether ad companies etc using analytics also have these sort of concerns and discussions?
51:43 - Therese Weel
I'd like analytics that suggest what question to ask next.
51:44 - Chris - Denver, Co
I don't think analytics will be on most educators or students minds, until administrators start tying analytics into performance measures like pay or funding.
52:14 - Stephen Downes
52:15 - Chris - Denver, Co
lol that is when the "Egyptian" style uprisings will occur.
52:19 - Gillian
@George I like the distinction bewteen the two factors: personal and LMS/admin. Biggest issue for me is that people find ever more ways to be individual and that really messes up LMSs....
52:44 - Stephen Downes
YAY! No homework...
52:52 - Wolfgang (NL)
52:59 - George Siemens
53:12 - Gillian
Great - time to catch up!
53:23 - Chris - Denver, Co
lol what could be better, chocolate, flowers, wine and analytics.
54:11 - Gillian
@Chris_Denver - Select three from four???
54:48 - Wolfgang (NL)
54:53 - Francisco Reis
54:54 - Chris - Denver, Co
@Gillian. Select all and then you and significant other can discuss metrics and benchmarking.
54:59 - Gillian
Thank you all!
55:01 - Stephen Downes
bye George & Tanya
55:06 - Wolfgang (NL)